settlement of £2422 for discounted tickets over time

[dee.monae]

Hi I am in a situation with EMR, they have offered a settlement of £2422 including admin, however I am a bit concerned I am paying more than I should have. They brought out my trainline ticket purchase history with records of tickets dating back to 2019 and they are saying I should pay for all the tickets I have travelled with, without the correct travel cards as most of them are discounted, shouldn't i just be paying for what I owe EMR, because the tickets are from Southeastern and EMR, and paying for what I owe EMR is much easier for me as I am a student and paying for this will not be easy. I am well aware that I should not have been applying discounts and I am more than willing to settle this out of court as it is my best interests to not have a criminal record as I am a pharmacy student, but i am scared i will not be able to pay this large amount in such a short space of time as my deadline to pay this is the 15th of june, can I please get some help or advice

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi I am in a similar situation with EMR, they have offered a settlement of £2422 including admin, however I am a bit concerned I am paying more than I should have. They brought out my trainline ticket purchase history with records of tickets dating back to 2019 and they are saying I should pay for all the tickets I have travelled with, without the correct travel cards as most of them are discounted, shouldn't i just be paying for what I owe EMR, because the tickets are from Southeastern and EMR, and paying for what I owe EMR is much easier for me as I am a student and paying for this will not be easy. I am well aware that I should not have been applying discounts and I am more than willing to settle this out of court as it is my best interests to not have a criminal record as I am a pharmacy student, but i am scared i will not be able to pay this large amount in such a short space of time as my deadline to pay this is the 15th of june, can I please get some help or advice

It has been suggested on threads before that you can ask for a breakdown of the sum they are asking for. But you presumably know how many tickets you have evaded / bought at child rate since 2019 and thus know how close to £2k that is.

But - you are not in much position to negotiate with them really IMHO. They can take you to court instead and will no doubt win (you can find out how much the court fine will be with sentencing guidelines or others will know what they are - this might be cheaper but you will have a criminal record so you need to weigh up the impact that may have on your future - with plans to work in part of the medical profession that would seem to me to risk significant impact).

In the unlikely event of them reducing the settlement offer, EMR would quite likely pass on the fare evasion evidence to Southeastern, who might then pursue you for the fares you evaded with them and / or also take you to court (so presumably another fine / record).

On top of the court fines you would have to repay the fares evaded (so you can work out how much that is I suspect) - and they would probably not subtract the amount you paid for the child ticket since that had no validity.

You could ask your student union welfare service for some advice? I would.

Pharmacy is surely a well remunerated career. Your ability to get jobs in it may be made more difficult by having a court record for fare evasion. I suspect you can contact the pharmacy professional body to ask about the consequences of that but of course you do not have a lot of time before you need to pay this.

My advice would be to look for a way to find the money to pay this settlement as allowing you to pursue your career without future hindrance will certainly earn you more than £2422 in the long run. That's the bigger picture.

Settling with them allows you to put all this behind you, never dodge fares again (buy a Railcard too!) and go forward without set backs to your future. That is worth a lot in my view.

 

[dee.monae]

Thank you for this advice, yes I am trying to find as many ways as possible to get the money and I have already got a railcard and yes in the letter they sent me the spreadsheet with all the tickets, however some of them are inaccurate and they are charged at the maximum fare even though I travelled at an off peak time

 

[dee.monae]

Hi I am in a situation with EMR, they have offered a settlement of £2422 including admin, however I am a bit concerned I am paying more than I should have. They brought out my trainline ticket purchase history with records of tickets dating back to 2019 and they are saying I should pay for all the tickets I have travelled with, without the correct travel cards as most of them are discounted, shouldn't i just be paying for what I owe EMR, because the tickets are from Southeastern and EMR, and paying for what I owe EMR is much easier for me as I am a student and paying for this will not be easy. Some of the tickets are inaccurate also as I either did not use them or bought them by accident. I am well aware that I should not have been applying discounts and I am more than willing to settle this out of court as it is my best interests to not have a criminal record as I am a pharmacy student, but i am scared i will not be able to pay this large amount in such a short space of time as my deadline to pay this is the 15th of june, can I please get some help or advice. I have now bought a travel card and learnt from my mistakes, it is not worth trying to get a discount in the long run, it is best to just do the honest and right thing.

 

[30907]

I suspect best for you to start your own thread.

This person is also facing a summons from SE according to:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/court-summons-for-fare-evasion.228551/
Maybe they could clarify?

But - you are not in much position to negotiate with them really IMHO. They can take you to court instead and will no doubt win (you can find out how much the court fine will be with sentencing guidelines or others will know what they are - this might be cheaper but you will have a criminal record so you need to weigh up the impact that may have on your future - with plans to work in part of the medical profession that would seem to me to risk significant impact).

They risk a conviction or even two under the Regulation of Railways Act not just the Byelaws (whether EMR or SE take that option cannot be predicted).

Negotiation would be appropriate IMO if they have also reached a settlement with SE.

Thank you for this advice, yes I am trying to find as many ways as possible to get the money and I have already got a railcard and yes in the letter they sent me the spreadsheet with all the tickets, however some of them are inaccurate and they are charged at the maximum fare even though I travelled at an off peak time

Unfortunately, that won't cut much ice - you travelled without a valid ticket (short-fared and discounted), and the Anytime fare or a Penalty Fare would have been an appropriate ticket to have issued onboard.

 

[Starmill]

Please could you clarify if you hold a railcard or other similar discount, or have done at any point since 2019?

Also, what discounts were applied to the tickets you were travelling with?

 

[dee.monae]

I have a railcard now but not from 2019, the discounts applied were 16-25, 16-17 and annual gold

 

[superkopite]

I think the OP is using "travel card" in place of Railcard

 

[swt_passenger]

Just a quick question, is this a separate problem to the one you posted about in February?

Court summons for fare evasion

ive received a court summons for fare evasion from southeastern, I have been at university and have not been able to access my court summons until this week even though my court hearing is next week, i really do not want this to go to court, am I still able to write to the prosecution to try and...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[dee.monae]

Just a quick question, is this a separate problem to the one you posted about in February?

Court summons for fare evasion

ive received a court summons for fare evasion from southeastern, I have been at university and have not been able to access my court summons until this week even though my court hearing is next week, i really do not want this to go to court, am I still able to write to the prosecution to try and...

www.railforums.co.uk

Yes it’s separate

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes it’s separate

Ok, I thought it might be looking at the position you had got to.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for this advice, yes I am trying to find as many ways as possible to get the money and I have already got a railcard and yes in the letter they sent me the spreadsheet with all the tickets, however some of them are inaccurate and they are charged at the maximum fare even though I travelled at an off peak time

Thanks for clarifications

I see good advice in post #25

I do not think you will get anywhere trying to argue 'I agree i dodged the fare but actually it was a discounted off peak fare so I should have a lower penalty' - you simply have to accept that if you engage in activity to deny the railway money you owe, they will seek every avenue to get it back - and for them the fare owed becomes the full price Anytime Fare.

I think it would only be inaccurate if on the occasion concerned you did not in fact travel or did not use a child's ticket (I am unsure if you were also 'dough-nutting' as per the OP in this thread as you are piggybackong on other thread and saying you did the same thing - which if so makes the whole thing worse as it is two types of evasion).

Obviously if you don't want to risk that, then the lesson is buy the correct ticket before you get on the train.

But - yes, as @30907 says - You may have an argument if you have settled with SE Trains about the ticket evasion with them and can show that to EMR you have done so - but you are in a very weak position IMHO.

As I say - you will get a better range of advice if you put the whole thing in one thread so people can see the circumstances as a whole and give you advice accordingly. Think about it like the way the pharmacist helpfully asks the customer if they are taking any other medication so that they can give holistic advice taking into account the whole situation.

EDIT - I see you have now started another thread which I think is helpful - thanks

settlement of £2422 for discounted tickets over time

Hi I am in a situation with EMR, they have offered a settlement of £2422 including admin, however I am a bit concerned I am paying more than I should have. They brought out my trainline ticket purchase history with records of tickets dating back to 2019 and they are saying I should pay for all...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[reb0118]

To clarify a point. You mention EMR are claiming for fares purchased through Southeastern - however was that for travel with Southeastern or EMR?

In any case it is my understanding that a train operating company can prosecute fare evasion found on another train operating company's trains or stations so it may well be possible for them to offer a settlement too.

Whilst you do not have to accept a settlement, as the option to attend court and fight your case there remains, it usually pays not to quibble too much. That said asking for a breakdown is not unreasonable.

 

[dee.monae]

They are claiming for fares purchased via trainline, so from 2019 I have made journeys with both southeastern and EMR. I accept the settlement and I’m a willing to pay as I have committed the offence however due to my current mental well-being and being a student also, it’ll be very difficult to obtain this amount of money hence why I see if it is feasible to negotiate them reducing the amount offered for the settlement.

 

[Wethebest838]

They are claiming for fares purchased via trainline, so from 2019 I have made journeys with both southeastern and EMR. I accept the settlement and I’m a willing to pay as I have committed the offence however due to my current mental well-being and being a student also, it’ll be very difficult to obtain this amount of money hence why I see if it is feasible to negotiate them reducing the amount offered for the settlement.

Can a family member, friend or someone help? You’re best to pay this off as going to court can make it way worst. You can also try for a loan but it may or may not be the best way to pay.

 

[dee.monae]

Yes for some of the tickets I have evidence of where I was and I had not travelled at all for some of the tickets

 

[dee.monae]

Yes I will ask around thank you

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes I will ask around thank you

I guess you could write along these lines if you think there is overlap between what they have set out in their list of evaded fares and the fares you have evaded with SE Trains - so long as you can evidence it to support your case and do this ASAP so as not to risk missing their deadline in June if they say no. I would not advise getting into questions of the off peak nature of any fares evaded tho, but it is your choice at the end of the day.

eg

Thank you for your offer to settle this mater with me for £xxxx , I very much appreciate this offer.

Thank you also and for supplying details of the fares you believe are concerned.

I have separately settled matters with South Eastern Trains in respect of certain fares and I enclose evidence of that agreement for you to see.

I wanted to ask if you could consider that with a view to reducing the sum you have asked of me, as I am in considerable financial difficulties at the present time.

I continue to regret my past actions but would be grateful if you could consider this.


or some such sort of wording. The only risk that I can see would be that they may remove the offer to settle and send it to court. But if you did not get a reply to such a request by the June deadline they have set I would be making the payment of the sum they are requesting in full to avoid court.

 

[dee.monae]

I guess you could write along these lines if you think there is overlap between what they have set out in their list of evaded fares and the fares you have evaded with SE Trains - so long as you can evidence it to support your case and do this ASAP so as not to risk missing their deadline in June if they say no. I would not advise getting into questions of the off peak nature of any fares evaded tho, but it is your choice at the end of the day.

eg

Thank you for your offer to settle this mater with me for £xxxx , I very much appreciate this offer.

Thank you also and for supplying details of the fares you believe are concerned.

I have separately settled matters with South Eastern Trains in respect of certain fares and I enclose evidence of that agreement for you to see.

I wanted to ask if you could consider that with a view to reducing the sum you have asked of me, as I am in considerable financial difficulties at the present time.

I continue to regret my past actions but would be grateful if you could consider this.


or some such sort of wording. The only risk that I can see would be that they may remove the offer to settle and send it to court. But if you did not get a reply to such a request by the June deadline they have set I would be making the payment of the sum they are requesting in full to avoid court.

Okay thank you for this but the ticket evasion matter was in regard to one incident where I did not have a ticket, and I settled out of court and this case has been closed is this still relevant to this?

 

[skyhigh]

Okay thank you for this but the ticket evasion matter was in regard to one incident where I did not have a ticket, and I settled out of court and this case has been closed is this still relevant to this?

Not really relevant at all. I wouldn't mention you got an out of court settlement from an unrelated offence in February - as assuming you were stopped regarding this after that point and you'd carried on claiming a discount you weren't entitled to since 2019, it looks exactly if you hadn't learnt your lesson and didn't realise the seriousness at all.

Given the amount and time frame, if you don't pay the settlement I wouldn't be surprised if they have a go at a Fraud prosecution. If at all possible you need to pay the settlement, get this over with and learn from what has happened. You can attempt to negotiate the settlement with them to get a lower amount, but they are fully able to withdraw their offer and prosecute at any point.

The fact that you travelled with Southeastern for some of the journeys is in my opinion irrelevant- they have an agreement to be able to prosecute on behalf of other companies.

 

[Haywain]

Okay thank you for this but the ticket evasion matter was in regard to one incident where I did not have a ticket, and I settled out of court and this case has been closed is this still relevant to this?

Not really. And I don't think they'll accept just settling for the EMR journeys. Train companies are more than happy to work together on fare evasion matters, and are not going to trust you to contact Southeastern and resolve the matter.

 

[AlterEgo]

Okay thank you for this but the ticket evasion matter was in regard to one incident where I did not have a ticket, and I settled out of court and this case has been closed is this still relevant to this?

It is not relevant then, unfortunately.

EMR are acting as agents of the railway, if this progresses to court you'll not only be convicted but also have to pay them a large settlement if they can show the court you have evaded fares over a lengthy period.

Did you admit to a long pattern of fare evasion in your correspondence with them?

 

[WesternLancer]

Okay thank you for this but the ticket evasion matter was in regard to one incident where I did not have a ticket, and I settled out of court and this case has been closed is this still relevant to this?

Well, I think it might be if it was a case that was listed on your Trainline account that EMR have picked up on and included in their list of charges to you, but otherwise probably not - and if one case it's not going to make much difference to the overall sum, and may run the risk of them cross referencing what they have now found with SE Trains, and you being in a worse situation overall. Which would not be good.

I know this will sound judgmental but you do have to try and step back and look at it form their point of view. You have been persistently evading fares with different train operators for several years and you have been caught by 2 of them by the sound of it. You could presumably have reduced many of those fares costs by the simple expedient of paying £30 for a railcard. I can't see that you are in a very strong position really.

 

[Haywain]

if it was a case that was listed on your Trainline account that EMR have picked up

As there was no ticket it won't be in the Trainline account.

 

[dee.monae]

Yes I had a face to face interview and was very open and honest with them about the evaded fares over a long period of time

It is not relevant then, unfortunately.

EMR are acting as agents of the railway, if this progresses to court you'll not only be convicted but also have to pay them a large settlement if they can show the court you have evaded fares over a lengthy period.

Did you admit to a long pattern of fare evasion in your correspondence with them

Well, I think it might be if it was a case that was listed on your Trainline account that EMR have picked up on and included in their list of charges to you, but otherwise probably not - and if one case it's not going to make much difference to the overall sum, and may run the risk of them cross referencing what they have now found with SE Trains, and you being in a worse situation overall. Which would not be good.

I know this will sound judgmental but you do have to try and step back and look at it form their point of view. You have been persistently evading fares with different train operators for several years and you have been caught by 2 of them by the sound of it. You could presumably have reduced many of those fares costs by the simple expedient of paying £30 for a railcard. I can't see that you are in a very strong position really.

Yes I completely understand and I am totally aware of this hence why I am more than willing to pay the settlement fare. I am just looking at the possibility of then reducing it or getting more time to pay it off as I am a student and I am actively working towards paying this off by working more than 2 jobs with 12 hour plus shifts

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes I had a face to face interview and was very open and honest with them about the evaded fares over a long period of time



Yes I completely understand and I am totally aware of this hence why I am more than willing to pay the settlement fare. I am just looking at the possibility of then reducing it or getting more time to pay it off as I am a student and I am actively working towards paying this off by working more than 2 jobs with 12 hour plus shifts

So you have probably been offered the settlement in respect of your honest and open approach with them, but they will also have the admission of guilt that would secure a court conviction, and the prospect of this costing you more etc.

I can see you are in a difficult situation and wish you well in resolving it, but that is not easy obviously.

 

[dee.monae]

So you have probably been offered the settlement in respect of your honest and open approach with them, but they will also have the admission of guilt that would secure a court conviction, and the prospect of this costing you more etc.

Exactly why I am trying my best to pay off the settlement, just praying I can by the 15th of June

 

[Haywain]

I am just looking at the possibility of then reducing it or getting more time to pay it off

You might get more time to pay the full amount if you can pay a substantial proportion of it before the deadline (and before asking for more time, so that they can see that there's money coming). I think it's unlikely you'll get any reduction.

 

[dee.monae]

Okay I will definitely do this then thank you

 

[skyhigh]

Yes I had a face to face interview and was very open and honest with them about the evaded fares over a long period of time

I'm assuming you didn't have professional representation at this interview. In which case, if you were very open they likely have a large amount of information that would be of use to them in a prosecution. It also seems fairly apparent that they would have put some effort into working out the settlement figure- so I agree it's unlikely they will agree to reduce it.

I hope this goes without saying, but you've been caught twice now. You need to make sure you don't get caught a third time.