Sevenoaks - St Pancras

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leshuttle

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I'm looking to find the best deal here with split ticketing if necessary?

Travel time is 09:29 (Peak on SE) but by the time I reach Orpington it's Off Peak inside TFL. My preferred route is not via LU but on Thameslink. A single ticket for this seems to be £11. It seems around 40-50% cheaper to buy a peak single to Orpington and then use Oyster PAYG off peak but that would mean having to get off my train, exit, tap in and wait for another train to London Bridge - acceptable but not ideal.
 
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yorkie

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I'm looking to find the best deal here with split ticketing if necessary?

Travel time is 09:29
Hmm. Can of worms anyone? ;)

A Sevenoaks to London St Pancras Off Peak Day Single (CDR) has validity code C4, "by any train scheduled to arrive London Terminals or Kensington Olympia at or after 1000" although you arrive at St Pancras after 1000, the 0929 is considered a "peak" train for this ticket, as the restriction is based on when the train is due to arrive. In this case, as you change at London Bridge before 1000, it is considered "peak" therefore not valid, by the booking engines.

However note that if your ticket was to London Terminals and your destination was Charing Cross, then as this train arrives after 1000, then it is valid!
(Peak on SE)
This train may, or may not, be valid on a specific Off Peak (Day) Single/Return ticket depending on various factors such as the origin, destination, and ticket type. There is no "peak on SE" rule as such! For each specific ticket, the restriction code must be looked up.

but by the time I reach Orpington it's Off Peak inside TFL.
Sorry to be pedantic but this isn't the best way to word it, as it doesn't quite work like that. I think you are trying to say that an Orpington to London Off Peak ticket is valid on that train? In which case, yes, that is true. But there is no such paper ticket so Oyster PAYG would need to be used to benefit from the off peak fare from Orpington.


My preferred route is not via LU but on Thameslink. A single ticket for this seems to be £11. It seems around 40-50% cheaper to buy a peak single to Orpington and then use Oyster PAYG off peak but that would mean having to get off my train, exit, tap in and wait for another train to London Bridge - acceptable but not ideal.
Sorry to be pedantic but the ticket is Anytime Day Single rather than peak single. In this case, we know what you mean though so it's not a problem :)

I'm not entirely sure that an Off Peak Day Single to St Pancras is not valid on the 0929. There is an argument to say that you are on a train that is scheduled to terminate at a London Terminal after 1000, therefore it is valid. The booking engines say it's not valid because they do not realise this fact.
 

MarkyMarkD

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Are you returning the same day, and is this in the TfL evening peak or not?

Are you doing this journey 5 days a week or sporadically?

Yorkie, that is indeed a can of worms. It is completely daft that the 0929 is available at offpeak fares if you stay on it until Charing Cross, but not if you get off it at London Bridge even purely to change trains. The C4 restriction doesn't make sense if interpreted as a restriction on the earliest time you can reach any London terminal and get off the train - even as a half-way point in a journey.
 
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455driver

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How about he buys that ticket (to Charing Cross) plus another ticket from London Bridge to st Pancras, does that work out cheaper, both can be bought at Orpington I presume.

Ps Yorkie, I know I promised to stay out of the ticketing section but I am trying to be helpful, honest.

Edit,
Which stations are classed as "London terminals" on the off peak ticket, if Blackfriars is then is that useful?
 

MikeWh

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That is a can of worms. If you ask on NRE for Sevenoaks to London Bridge then it says that the 0929 requires an anytime ticket. Change the destination to Charing Cross and all of a sudden you can use an off-peak ticket. If you had a Sevenoaks to London terminals ticket then any on-board RPI would have to give you the benefit of the doubt unless you were clear you were travelling to London Bridge.

St Pancras is an odd situation because rather than London Terminals you have to buy a ticket to St Pancras because London Terminals tickets are not valid to travel to or via Farringdon. So the question then becomes: Is an off-peak ticket valid because your final destination (which is a London Terminal) is reached after 1000, or does the fact that you alight from that train at London Bridge mean that you need an anytime ticket.

I don't know the answer.
 

MarkyMarkD

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Well, according to NRE it requires an anytime ticket, following Yorkie's emboldended reference to the C4 restriction relating to the train reaching a London terminal before 1000, rather than the passenger reaching their destination London terminal before 1000.
 

yorkie

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Well, according to NRE it requires an anytime ticket, following Yorkie's emboldended reference to the C4 restriction relating to the train reaching a London terminal before 1000, rather than the passenger reaching their destination London terminal before 1000.
I agree the restriction applies to the train from Orpington for this ticket, and therefore the time the passenger arrives at St Pancras is not what determines the validity. The train does indeed reach a London Terminal before 1000, but it also terminates at a London Terminal after 1000. So we need to examine the wording carefully.

As the ticket is valid "on any train scheduled to arrive London Terminals at or after 1000" then, as that train meets that criteria, there is a strong argument to say the ticket is valid IMO.

The booking sites simply cannot cope with this! (and I certainly wouldn't expect the ATOS WebTIS booking engines to cope with such complex restrictions, given ATOS' reputation!:lol:)

If the restriction was worded differently, I may have had a different interpretation. For example if it was worded "on any train EXCEPT those timed to arrive London Terminals before 1000" then there would be less of a case to say it's valid (but still a case!) IMO.
 

Indigo2

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So why on earth does NRE say that the very slow 0913 train from Sevenoaks requires a peak ticket, when it doesn't arrive at STP until 1028 and doesn't get near any other London Terminal before 1000?
The electronic version of the ticket restrictions used by the booking engines appears to contain an entry stating that tickets with restriction code C4 are not valid at all for any departures from anywhere, between 0230 and 0929 each day.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That is clearly incorrect, I should probably add. The bulk of the electronic data feed often seems to consist of a series of hacks to work around bugs in the various booking engines, and is not worth the CD it is supplied on...
 

CheapAndNerdy

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I know we're going off on a bit of a tangent here, but if the off-peak ticket is valid on the 09:29 to Charing Cross, and the ticket type permits break of journey, then regardless of what the specific restriction code says, the CoC states that the journey may be terminated at an intermediate station.
 

philjo

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For your info - it's a one-way journey to make a connection with Eurostar at about 11:30 (already booked).
How much is a single to LNDON ESTAR CIV (you need to book this via eurostar telesales) ? That would also cover you if delayed on getting to St Pancras.
 

calc7

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I know we're going off on a bit of a tangent here, but if the off-peak ticket is valid on the 09:29 to Charing Cross, and the ticket type permits break of journey, then regardless of what the specific restriction code says, the CoC states that the journey may be terminated at an intermediate station.
One of the classic instances in railway ticketing where performing two logical operations in a different order produces two opposite outcomes.
 

leshuttle

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How much is a single to LNDON ESTAR CIV (you need to book this via eurostar telesales) ? That would also cover you if delayed on getting to St Pancras.
I found that Raileasy gives a Sevenoaks - London International single anytime (with railcard) at £7 standard or £10.35 first. Downside there's a £2 booking fee!
 

MarkyMarkD

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I know we're going off on a bit of a tangent here, but if the off-peak ticket is valid on the 09:29 to Charing Cross, and the ticket type permits break of journey, then regardless of what the specific restriction code says, the CoC states that the journey may be terminated at an intermediate station.
I am sure that you are right, but I can imagine some "fun" trying to exit a London Terminal with such a ticket before 1000.

The problem is that the OP is talking about merely changing trains at LBG before 1000, on a ticket to STP (not London Terminals, because London Terminals tickets are not valid to STP), so an on-train guard could deny that it was valid as could a member of staff at Sevenoaks.

A ticket to CHX should do the job, though, and changing at LBG (without leaving the station, obviously) is unlikely to be a problem even at 0955.
 

LexyBoy

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The problem is that the OP is talking about merely changing trains at LBG before 1000, on a ticket to STP (not London Terminals, because London Terminals tickets are not valid to STP), so an on-train guard could deny that it was valid as could a member of staff at Sevenoaks.

A ticket to CHX should do the job, though, and changing at LBG (without leaving the station, obviously) is unlikely to be a problem even at 0955.
I disagree that a seperate ticket is required, although I agree that it may potentially lead to issues with on-train staff (although, if booking sites offer the Off Peak fare to Charing Cross for the 0929, I would expect them to think of the service as being "off peak").

yorkie's reading of the restrictions - with which I agree - has a ticket with C4 restriction being valid on the 0929 as it arrives at a London Terminal at or after 1000. Where the passenger disembarks is not relevant for this condition to be met.

Anyways, I feel that we might be getting a little side-tracked from OP's original request, which was - is it possible to reduce the price for their Sevenoaks-St Pancras journey. The CDS is £10.80 whilst the SDS is £11.00 (both route Not Underground), so there's only 20p at stake on the validity of the Off Peak ticket on the 0929.
I found that Raileasy gives a Sevenoaks - London International single anytime (with railcard) at £7 standard or £10.35 first. Downside there's a £2 booking fee!
What Railcard do you have? It wasn't mentioned before. I would recommend this ticket as with it you're fully protected against delays resulting in missing your Eurostar.
If you really need to save money then you could do as you initially suggested and use Oyster from Orpington.
 

Daz28

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What Railcard do you have? It wasn't mentioned before. I would recommend this ticket as with it you're fully protected against delays resulting in missing your Eurostar.
It also has the benefit of being routed +ANY PERMITTED, so can be used on the Underground, and of course it is unrestricted.
 

Oscar

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Quote:
Originally Posted by leshuttle
I found that Raileasy gives a Sevenoaks - London International single anytime (with railcard) at £7 standard or £10.35 first. Downside there's a £2 booking fee!

What Railcard do you have? It wasn't mentioned before. I would recommend this ticket as with it you're fully protected against delays resulting in missing your Eurostar.
If you really need to save money then you could do as you initially suggested and use Oyster from Orpington.
You can be London International tickets from all National Rail ticket offices and can thus save the Raileasy booking fee (as I recently found out here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1070471#post1070471).
Normally I would recommend a London Estar CIV ticket but these are not available on the Sevenoaks route.
There are also "Not London CIV" tickets from Sevenoaks to Ashford International at similar prices to the Sevenoaks - London International ones.
 

LexyBoy

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Sorry, I forgot to mention that! You will probably need your E* tickets to prove you're eligible when booking the tickets at a station.

In future Ashford would be a more convenient interchange as it's an easy trip from Tonbridge. I don't think you would be able to use your existing tickets to pick up the Eurostar at Ashford though (even if it stops there).
 

Oscar

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I don't think you would be able to use your existing tickets to pick up the Eurostar at Ashford though (even if it stops there).
I doubt this. Eurostar usually allow passengers with tickets from London to Continental stations to get on at Ebbsfleet or Ashford unless this is specifically forbidden. The problem is more that so few Eurostars stop at Ashford I think.

I've now found a quote about this from "Eurostar 4 Agents":
My customer now wants to board at Ashford/Ebbsfleet not St Pancras. Can they do this?
Customers can board at Ashford/Ebbsfleet providing the train stops there. They just need to turn up at the station and go to the manual check-in with their original tickets. However tickets should be booked for departure from the correct station whenever possible.
 

LexyBoy

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That's good to know - though personally I would contact Eurostar to confirm this before travelling. I have always found them very helpful and capable of rearranging travel with no problems. The Eurostar Conditions of Carriage are a bit wooly but suggest to me that it is not technically allowed (at least for the return part). The relevant sections are 8.1 and 11.
 

leshuttle

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You can be London International tickets from all National Rail ticket offices and can thus save the Raileasy booking fee
Thanks - that's what I'm now planning to do - (also have a 16-25 card).

In future Ashford would be a more convenient interchange as it's an easy trip from Tonbridge.
I did consider this option but train times and cheap ticket availability led me to choose an outward journey from STP which doesn't stop anywhere in between. My return Eurostar is however booked to Ashford so will be looking to get a CIV back to Tonbridge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Customers can board at Ashford/Ebbsfleet providing the train stops there
Wouldn't like to see this attempted otherwise! :lol:
 

yorkie

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For future reference, it's best to mention any Railcards and whether this is part of a longer journey or not, from the start, as then we are more likely to be able to give suitable advice :)
 
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Hi Guys,

I would just like to take you through some of the economics of selling a UK train operator ticket of £7.

As an independent retailer (who actually takes the trouble to give people these London Int'l fares) on a £7 ticket we earn in commission £0.37p.

Out of that we have to "pay back" £0.90 if the ticket is collected at a ticket office or £0.45 from a TVM. On top of that there is a £0.15 charge for inserting a TOD booking in Lennon.

I fail to see why it costs £0.90 to issue a TOD booking when it's only worth £0.37 to sell it.

As you can see there is no way we can cover a couple of the "external" costs with the commission we earn. There are more I can assure you, eg merchant fees from card companies for one, data licenses, NRS charges etc etc before we even get into our costs for hardware/hosting, programming and staff.

BTW we not only offer fares to london Int'l but have created a UK and Eurostar through fare booking capability on Raileasy - which incidentally isn't a 5 min job/cheap exercise in programming terms - so people can now book from Manchester to Marseilles for example in one transaction.

As someone said, it makes eminent sense to buy the tickets to London Int'l because you are covered both ways if there are delays.

So for example, if your UK train was delayed and you missed your booked Eurostar which just happened to be the last one of the day, you could claim your overnight stay!

Apologies about the rant but I'm sure I saw something posted which was a lot more pejorative about Raileasy.
 

Oscar

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I'm sorry for having described Raileasy's London International tickets as a con. Your explanation of the cost to Raileasy was very interesting and has surprised me. However, I do find it frustrating that Raileasy charges booking fees which buying exactly the same ticket at a station ticket office does not attract any fees. Do you have any idea why this is? Secondly, I find it very disappointing that only Eurostar sells the London Estar CIV tickets which are often cheaper or have more availability for Advances although I understand that this is outside of your control. I have thus been disappointed in the past to see Raileasy charge £29 and a couple of pounds in booking and debit card fees for a London International ticket when Eurostar charge £14 for a London Eurostar ticket on the same train.
I must say that I am definitely impressed on the other hand by the fact you have set up a UK and Eurostar through booking system which even takes into account Railcard discounts for the UK leg (unlike Eurostar's site).
 

MarkyMarkD

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I think Mike's post explains pretty well why Raileasy levy charges.

If you buy from a station ticket office, the marginal cost to them of selling a ticket is very low. The staff are there anyway. They are just incurring the cost of a few pieces of card.
 

Oscar

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Out of that we have to "pay back" £0.90 if the ticket is collected at a ticket office
Why should it be any cheaper for the ticket office to sell the ticket than for Raileasy to get the ticket printed and given out by the ticket office though? (I can understand the £0.15 Lennon charge on the other hand.) Surely this takes up less staff time?
The IT complications aside, I would imagine that bookings through Raileasy collected using TOD would take up less staff time than bookings made at a ticket office.
 
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