Severance roll-out

[172007]

It is also almost certainly illegal.

Under collective bargaining a forced retirement age is allowed. XC have it for a start

 

[Wolfie]

Under collective bargaining a forced retirement age is allowed. XC have it for a start

Re your first sentence, like hell it is. There are legal provisions for a forced retirement age (see link) but they are quite narrow and absolutely not related to collective bargaining. The TUs may have agreed with the company that they will not legally challenge but that certainly would not stop individuals doing so.

Working after State Pension age

Working while taking your pension, State Pension age, retirement age, how long you can work, tax and national insurance, flexible working, discrimination

www.gov.uk

Compulsory retirement age at 65 fully abolished

The default retirement age in the UK has been fully abolished after being phased out from April this year.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[172007]

Re your first sentence, like hell it is. There are legal provisions for a forced retirement age (see link) but they are quite narrow and absolutely not related to collective bargaining. The TUs may have agreed with the company that they will not legally challenge but that certainly would not stop individuals doing so.

Working after State Pension age

Working while taking your pension, State Pension age, retirement age, how long you can work, tax and national insurance, flexible working, discrimination

www.gov.uk

Compulsory retirement age at 65 fully abolished

The default retirement age in the UK has been fully abolished after being phased out from April this year.

www.bbc.co.uk

Be interesting to see if any XC drivers have challenged it in court.

 

[irish_rail]

I know of a couple of Virgin west coast drivers apparently challenged it and lost.

 

[43066]

Re your first sentence, like hell it is. There are legal provisions for a forced retirement age (see link) but they are quite narrow and absolutely not related to collective bargaining. The TUs may have agreed with the company that they will not legally challenge but that certainly would not stop individuals doing so.

When the default retirement age was abolished it remained possible for employers to retain a mandatory retirement age in limited circumstances in order to achieve a “legitimate aim” such as allowing younger workers into an industry.

https://www.acas.org.uk/sites/default/files/2021-03/age-discrimination-key-points-for-the-workplace.pdf

The employee’s right to decide when to retire
Most employees now have the right to decide at what age they will retire. There is no legal ‘standard’ or ‘default’ retirement age. This ended in 2011. Also, an employee does not need to retire when they reach the State pension age. An employer can still set a retirement age if it meets legal requirements. This decision must meet the wider needs of society, such as giving young people the chance of employment or creating a workforce with a mix of age groups, as well as the organisation’s business needs. However, the need to set a retirement age can be very difficult to prove. So, few employers do this apart from for some roles which are physically-demanding and/or involve public safety. To find out more, go to the section, Where discrimination may be lawful, further into this guide.

We discussed this on here before and from memory Cross Country have retained a mandatory retirement age as a result of pressure from ASLEF (which is perhaps where the comments above re. collective bargaining come from). An absolutely terrible state of affairs in my opinion, but there we have it.

 

[Wolfie]

I know of a couple of Virgin west coast drivers apparently challenged it and lost.

If it can be objectively justified then it is legal. One possible justification is physical degradation.

 

[hello]

Be interesting to see if any XC drivers have challenged it in court.

I believe it was voted in favour by the drivers

 

[berwicksfinest]

When is this scheme being offered to DB Cargo staff?

Local Network Rail gang tells me the managers are up in arms, they are not allowed to apply yet, they are in the ‘wrong’ department.

All aboard the Voluntary Severance train!

Already had it !!! Project Charles !!! remember that, don't think they'll be going there again in a looooong while

 

[Aictos]

It is also almost certainly illegal.

Maybe but those aged 60 or over have worked all their lives so deserve to be able to enjoy their retirement rather then have to do long and demanding shifts that are anti social, why should they have to work for even longer when they could and should be able to enjoy retirement.

 

[Trainer2]

Already had it !!! Project Charles !!! remember that, don't think they'll be going there again in a looooong while

Life circumstances changed since, be nice to leave the industry near the start of the slow decline, it’s not gonna get any better.

I hope the Network Rail track maintenance guys can get a bite of the voluntary severance, they have all had enough.

Time to get of the titanic

 

[43066]

Maybe but those aged 60 or over have worked all their lives so deserve to be able to enjoy their retirement rather then have to do long and demanding shifts that are anti social, why should they have to work for even longer when they could and should be able to enjoy retirement.

This is a disingenuous way of spinning things. Nobody has said anybody should have to work longer than they wish to. But why on Earth should they prevented from continuing to work if they need to?

What many object to is the notion that senior men should be forced to give up jobs they enjoy, are good at, and have done for many years, simply due to their age.

The fact that ASLEF are apparently apparently in favour of this outrageous and legally tenuous discrimination simply beggars belief. This is something that will penalise those drivers who have paid their dues and contributed a great deal to the railway, and to the union, for many decades.

I say this as a relative newcomer to the industry, in my 30s, plenty of years for me still to go!

 

[Rab Smith]

I think I speak for many people in the rail industry. If the package offered is attractive enough, I'd bite their hand off.

 

[Wolfie]

Maybe but those aged 60 or over have worked all their lives so deserve to be able to enjoy their retirement rather then have to do long and demanding shifts that are anti social, why should they have to work for even longer when they could and should be able to enjoy retirement.

I am approaching 60 and intend to retire from my job then. I may well though find some other, perhaps part-time, work. That though is my choice. You appear to be arguing that others should have be denied any choice, regardless of their personal situation, but should be compelled.
If l was cynical your comments rather smack of "get lost you old gits so l can have the railway career that l want".

 

[Mat17]

I think there should be opportunity of redundancy for those nearing retirement that want to retire and would happily bite the hands off, so to speak. You know where work is the bane of their existence and they've got a calender counting down the years/months/days left to go.

But equally so, it'd be a shame if those nearing/at/or over retirement age, who need to work due to financial reasons and/or enjoy working because it gives them a sense of self purpose or simply they enjoy the challenge, shouldn't be forced out based on their age alone. Nothing like been thrown on the scrap heap is there?

Obviously, if they have reached the point where their age/health is preventing them from doing their work to a satisfactory standard, that's a different kettle of fish.

 

[Wolfie]

I think there should be opportunity of redundancy for those nearing retirement that want to retire and would happily bite the hands off, so to speak. You know where work is the bane of their existence and they've got a calender counting down the years/months/days left to go.

But equally so, it'd be a shame if those nearing/at/or over retirement age, who need to work due to financial reasons and/or enjoy working because it gives them a sense of self purpose or simply they enjoy the challenge, shouldn't be forced out based on their age alone. Nothing like been thrown on the scrap heap is there?

Obviously, if they have reached the point where their age/health is preventing them from doing their work to a satisfactory standard, that's a different kettle of fish.

Exactly. If someone wants to stay and is able to do the job properly why should they be forced out. If cuts are needed and others want to volunteer...

 

[The Planner]

Remember this is a voluntary severance scheme, not redundancy, quite a difference.

 

[wobman]

Exactly. If someone wants to stay and is able to do the job properly why should they be forced out. If cuts are needed and others want to volunteer...

I can't see traincrew being offered the voluntree redundancy package, there's a shortage of traincrew across many Tocs.

It's a shame that skilled and experienced staff are asked to leave, many still have a lot to offer the industry. But I realise many staff that take the offer are just fed up of how the industry is changing in a bad way.

 

[Mat17]

Remember this is a voluntary severance scheme, not redundancy, quite a difference.

So far... I'm thinking more three or four years on from here.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I read there'd be 'no compulsory redundancies through to December' and that the voluntary severance was to be offered. What happens though if the quota required to take this scheme doesn't step forward? What happens next year, or the year after?

 

[dk1]

I’ve never known any compulsory redundancies in my 37 years of continuous employment. I have been made ‘railway’ redundant twice in my career & both times ended up being offered better more lucrative jobs. And now as a driver the chance of being offered this are practically zero. BOO!!!

 

[dctraindriver]

Maybe but those aged 60 or over have worked all their lives so deserve to be able to enjoy their retirement rather then have to do long and demanding shifts that are anti social, why should they have to work for even longer when they could and should be able to enjoy retirement.

Maybe they still enjoy work…….. clutching at straws I guess?

 

[Trainer2]

Network rail lads tell me the voluntary offer is only 2 weeks for each year because they need to hold money back for the compulsory pot.
Their big boss admitted as much on a video call to staff.

Seems big changes are on the way and mainly for the worse in terms of pay rises, promotions and pensions (did I mention over time?!), I am jealous of all those who get of the train now before the industry hits the buffers.

I’m too old to worry about careers, but still be nice to get looked after, time to depart.

 

[Wolfie]

Network rail lads tell me the voluntary offer is only 2 weeks for each year because they need to hold money back for the compulsory pot.
Their big boss admitted as much on a video call to staff.

Seems big changes are on the way and mainly for the worse in terms of pay rises, promotions and pensions (did I mention over time?!), I am jealous of all those who get of the train now before the industry hits the buffers.

I’m too old to worry about careers, but still be nice to get looked after, time to depart.

If you look at what has happened in most of the public sector since 2010 it will likely offer major insights into what HMT (and make no mistake they will be behind much of this) has in mind.

 

[Mat17]

If you look at what has happened in most of the public sector since 2010 it will likely offer major insights into what HMT (and make no mistake they will be behind much of this) has in mind.

I work in education and I have to concur. We had redundancies and the staffing levels were stripped back, those of us that survived then picked up the work of all those who had gone.

This is nationalised industry, the state sector, run by bean counters.

 

[172007]

I work in education and I have to concur. We had redundancies and the staffing levels were stripped back, those of us that survived then picked up the work of all those who had gone.

This is nationalised industry, the state sector, run by bean counters.

Fail to see how it's any different to private sector. Plenty of office workers work say 5 - 6 hours a week extra for no pay etc as staffing is cut during re structures.

 

[Mat17]

Fail to see how it's any different to private sector. Plenty of office workers work say 5 - 6 hours a week extra for no pay etc as staffing is cut during re structures.

I never said it was, more trying the reaffirm that it is the same to be honest.

There are some who think that re-nationalising the railways would solve the woes of privatisation, it won't.

At the end of the day, in this modern world we live in, its all short sightedness. It costs too much now... trim, trim, trim.

Reduce staffing, reduce costs, voluntary severance, compulsory redundancies etc. It's all very much a repeat of the Beeching era... cut back the unnecessary, only to find out later, that actually some of it might have been useful if it had been kept.

 

[The Planner]

Network rail lads tell me the voluntary offer is only 2 weeks for each year because they need to hold money back for the compulsory pot.
Their big boss admitted as much on a video call to staff.

Seems big changes are on the way and mainly for the worse in terms of pay rises, promotions and pensions (did I mention over time?!), I am jealous of all those who get of the train now before the industry hits the buffers.

I’m too old to worry about careers, but still be nice to get looked after, time to depart.

Plenty of people positioning themselves to jump into dead mans shoes or create a promotion from re-orgs so that is far from dead. This is head count reduction, not role redundancy.

 

[Red Devil]

Just had details through for my TOC, Northern.
Open to all APART from drivers, conductors and train maintenance engineers.

 

[Meole]

Framework was agreed by unions back in June, savings of £2bn required nationally.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Pretty much the same across the industry from what I've heard.

Rail Delivery Group have launched a website for it too: https://myrailfuture.co.uk/

 

[pdeaves]

Just had details through for my TOC, Northern.
Open to all APART from drivers, conductors and train maintenance engineers.

Same here (a different TOC)