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Shamima Begum

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Senex

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-47312026/shamima-begum-uk-unjust-to-remove-citizenship
The British teenager who fled London to join Islamic State says she believes the UK government are being unjust by removing her citizenship without speaking to her first.
This woman is reported on the BBC PM programme this afternoon as being surprised that the Home Secretary has not talked to her before taking decisions about her and surprised at the lack of sympathy he has shewn for her and her child.

How can the person who shewed such a total lack of any sympathy for the children killed in the Manchester bomb episode or for those whose heads she saw in baskets in Mosil (?) expect sympathy for herself and her child?

And why might she think that the British taxpayer should be willing to face any burden at all to support her and a child conceived whilst she was supporting the Queen's enemies?
 
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EM2

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She should be hanged for treason. I hope she rots in hell.
To do that, you'd have to put her on trial. And to put her on trial, you'd have to allow her back to the UK.
Please note that I'm not saying that that is what should happen. But if that's the outcome that you want that's the process that would have to be followed.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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And to put her on trial, you'd have to allow her back to the UK.
Not necessarily - you can try someone in their absence (e.g. the recent infamous case of the 'boat killer' who fled to somewhere in central Asia, I believe).
 

Ken H

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She should be handed to the Syrian authorities for them to impose Syrian justice on her. For whatever crimes she committed, they will have been in Syria.
I imagine she will be quite keen to avoid that, however.

There are some american ones in the same boat. They want to go home too. To the US? With the death penalty. To be tried by the military. That could go badly.
 

Basher

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Yes it would best for all if the Syrians sorted it out.
If she was allowed back in the UK, she would qualify for legal aid and the child would end up being looked after on benefits (my taxes).
 

swj99

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I wondered whether to have sympathy for her, but I'd find it difficult.

Danny Dyer appears to be more understanding, and I love what he said when Madely tried to blame it on the internet.

 

Geezertronic

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I think this Terrorist/Terrorist Sympathiser has had far too much coverage. If she dares to come back, the full weight of the law should be applied and she should rot in jail
 

Bertie the bus

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Danny Dyer appears to be more understanding,
Maybe he can give her a royal pardon.

I have no idea why the British media are giving an airing to this individual’s whining. I’m not even sure why she is still alive. We know where she is. We have drones…
 

GusB

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I'm going to risk it and stick my head above the parapet - bring her back. I'm not suggesting for one minute that I condone the actions of the people she's with, nor her decision to go and join ISIS, but she was technically a minor at the time. On her return make sure she's interviewed to see what, if any, intelligence she can provide and if she herself is guilty of any crimes, try her.

If she was allowed back in the UK, she would qualify for legal aid and the child would end up being looked after on benefits (my taxes).
The child who is a British citizen, has only just been born, and knows nothing of the situation. Whatever you think of the mother, the child is entirely innocent and should be brought back to safety. You can't assume he will be brought up on benefits either.
 

Qwerty133

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The child who is a British citizen, has only just been born, and knows nothing of the situation. Whatever you think of the mother, the child is entirely innocent and should be brought back to safety. You can't assume he will be brought up on benefits either.
Especially as anyone with the slightest amount of common sense wouldn't allow the child to be bought up by this terrorist or her parents who raised a terrorist and would instead have it adopted outside of the family quite possibly by a working couple unable to have their own children. The baby is innocent, Shamima is not and her adult family are not much better.
 

thejuggler

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When you groom someone from the age of 12 you can get them to do and believe anything. Over 3 years you can desensitise them to things most of more advanced years find abhorrent.

Despite what everyone wants to do to her she is a UK citizen, she can't have that removed just because a Home Secretary signs a letter saying so. Its a dangerous precedent to set as he will find that out over the next few months as it goes through the Court.
 

DarloRich

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I have no sympathy for this woman. She made her bed. She has shown no remorse. However she has to be dealt with the same as any one else accused of a crime. How can we attempt to convince people we are better than these ISIS animals if we start to act as they do? We are sliding towards mob justice. By all means strip her of citizenship but do so legally ( and it seems there is doubt in this case) not for some self aggrandising political motive.

Also, do we as a nation not have a responsibility to deal with our own criminals instead of asking others to sort out our problems ?

I'm going to risk it and stick my head above the parapet - bring her back. I'm not suggesting for one minute that I condone the actions of the people she's with, nor her decision to go and join ISIS, but she was technically a minor at the time. On her return make sure she's interviewed to see what, if any, intelligence she can provide and if she herself is guilty of any crimes, try her.

agreed - arrest her, bring her back here, try her, put her in prison. Life time monitoring. Forget about her.

The child who is a British citizen, has only just been born, and knows nothing of the situation. Whatever you think of the mother, the child is entirely innocent and should be brought back to safety. You can't assume he will be brought up on benefits either.

exactly - the child is a British citizen and is an innocent babe in arms. I don't really care about the mother. The child has done nothing wrong other than be born to a dodgy family. That seems to be grounds for excommunication.

Yes it would best for all if the Syrians sorted it out.
If she was allowed back in the UK, she would qualify for legal aid and the child would end up being looked after on benefits (my taxes).

She should be hanged for treason. I hope she rots in hell.

Such incisive, mature and intelligent commentary from our legal correspondent.

Are you sure she committed any crimes in Syria? What if they decide there is no case to answer? Then what? I wonder what we do with the baby if she is guilty and she is hanged? Hang it just in case? Seems you have written of a child who is about 1 week old to a life of terrorism. What do you pose to do about this baby?

How do you propose to hang this woman if you leave her in Syria? She needs to come back here for conviction and sentence.

She should be handed to the Syrian authorities for them to impose Syrian justice on her. For whatever crimes she committed, they will have been in Syria.

Do you know she has committed a crime in Syria? What do we do if they say they don't want to try her? What do we do with the baby?

Finally a Home Secretary that has a spine and done what he said he was planing to do and actually follow through on it.

Asking if the superbly spined Home Secretary has a plan to deal with a tiny British citizen now in danger? Do you have any ideas here?
 

Basher

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I'm going to risk it and stick my head above the parapet - bring her back. I'm not suggesting for one minute that I condone the actions of the people she's with, nor her decision to go and join ISIS, but she was technically a minor at the time. On her return make sure she's interviewed to see what, if any, intelligence she can provide and if she herself is guilty of any crimes, try her.


The child who is a British citizen, has only just been born, and knows nothing of the situation. Whatever you think of the mother, the child is entirely innocent and should be brought back to safety. You can't assume he will be brought up on benefits either.
Why are you going to support it.
 

mikeg

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No sympathy for her, but have to agree with @DarloRich on this. I add an additional observation about the argument over dual citizenship: She has the potential to apply for Bangladeshi citizenship in theory, but as far as we know does not actually have it. Bangladesh say they do not want her (Who can blame them?) but just the potential to gain citizenship of that country. There are a great many people in Britain who have the potential to gain citizenship of another country, but their citizenship ought to be protected until this is actually the case. Otherwise we could strip many people with Irish decent of citizenship. A great deal of the Caribbean population would be affected, as would almost every British Jew as they have a right to Israeli citizenship. This would set a profoundly uncomfortable precedent. I do not deny the Anglo-Irish their inalienable right to British citizenship until they take their Irish citizenship, nor do I say 'Go back to Jamaica' to any British Caribbean I encounter who has committed a serious crime. British Jews have an equal right to be here, even if they break the law in a serious manner.

A further observation is who is the responsible minister or secretary of state to declare someone has committed a crime? I agree the evidence is damning but we have a judicial system for a very good reason. I say bring her back, let her stand trial, pleading guilty or otherwise as she feels appropriate and let the law take care of her from there. To say no return would not just be a violation of her rights but the rights of those who wish to be free from terrorism. I would say I don't care about her rights but it appears to me that rights if they are to mean anything have to be applied to even those we despise otherwise they are privileges and not rights in any way shape or form.
 

fowler9

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I'm in two minds. I have no sympathy for her, however, why should Syria have to use its incredibly limited resources to deal with a British citizen who went over there and joined a terrorist organisation.
 

mafeu

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At 15, she was old enough to know that her decision may end badly. It has.

The child is innocent but I’d guess she’s using it as a shield. While I wouldn’t support evacuating her based on risk to life and that she likely has malicious intent, the child is another story as it’s at risk just being in her care as I understand two other children died under her watch.

As for stripping her of citizenship, I understand Bangladesh have stated she isn’t a citizen not that she can’t claim citizenship. I think stripping her UK citizenship is a reasonable measure. A small price. A big loss to her.
 

fowler9

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At 15, she was old enough to know that her decision may end badly. It has.

The child is innocent but I’d guess she’s using it as a shield. While I wouldn’t support evacuating her based on risk to life and that she likely has malicious intent, the child is another story as it’s at risk just being in her care as I understand two other children died under her watch.

As for stripping her of citizenship, I understand Bangladesh have stated she isn’t a citizen not that she can’t claim citizenship. I think stripping her UK citizenship is a reasonable measure. A small price. A big loss to her.
I totally get what you are saying but why should another country have to use its resources to deal with someone who went off the rails while she was in our country?
 

Quakkerillo

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She has made a horrible choice in life, and - sadly - it is one she's sticking with. The fact that there's hardly any remorse in her choice will certainly not help her case. It doesn't sound like she's seen the damage she's done to herself, the child, Syria, Muslims, the world as a whole by supporting ISIS.
But one thing I still don't understand, and what I've not heard much about.
How can three minors, unaccompanied except by themselves, in the midst of school period, fly out to Turkey, and eventually make it towards Syria without any alarm bells ringing? With all the surveillance that the UK and other governments do, surely this should've been highly questionable. Adults can just fake going on holiday to the Turkish coast and make their way over, but minors who are supposed to be in school shouldn't have been able to get their tickets booked and travel there so easily in my opinion.
Could all of this not have been prevented if the British and Turkish legal protection systems worked properly to prevent these girls from even getting there in the first place?
 

Cowley

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As a father (and long time stepfather) of 15 and 19 year old girls I can understand the ridiculous immature life choices that can lead them into the situation that she has found herself in now.
Unfortunately this young lady has become a poster girl for this particular debate and no matter what happens now she (and her innocent baby son) will end up as a political football until our government decides on some kind of across the board plan as to what to do with similar cases in the future (and there are/will be plenty).
Personally (and I've felt the anger rise and then dissipate on this), I'll go with GusB, Fowler9 and DarloRich's opinions on this...
We need to get them back, take the baby into care (or perhaps place them with her parents who were horrified that she'd gone in the first place), get her into a program of de-radicalisation, and try to learn what lead her into those decisions as a young 15 year old in the first place.

She is still clearly a very immature young woman, that's obvious just by listening to her.
She'll never be free from being monitored after what she's done.
But she shouldn't be the one scapegoat no matter how angry we feel about the situation.

How is she to understand the feelings back home while she's sat in a refugee camp getting through each day one day at a time?
If someone sticks a microphone in front of her and asks a few leading questions it would be more than easy to say something that makes her look uncaring and cold.
She's a teenager who's been a complete fool.
She is not ISIS personified.
 

Killingworth

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The Times journalist got himself a scoop but has done the girl no favours. She's now a political football, conditioned by her current environment with a limited view of the situation.

There is no evidence that she is a direct threat to anyone. The child is no threat at all. There is a threat that turning her into some sort of martyr will embitter others who may be on the brink of radicalisation.

Remove the spotlight. Give her anonymity and time to be assessed calmly so a reasoned judgement can be made from evidence.

It's not a good idea to talk to journalists first when a potential crime may have been committed. That's the reason the police are expected to allow a solicitor to be present for an interview. This naive girl is now being manipulated for a second time and the reactions do us more harm than she can.
 

DanDaDriver

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I’d be interested to see what she had to say when she was back here.

If you were in a camp with potentially many other “ex” ISIS members then you’d probably bang on about “Death to the West,” too.
 

AlterEgo

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I'm in two minds. I have no sympathy for her, however, why should Syria have to use its incredibly limited resources to deal with a British citizen who went over there and joined a terrorist organisation.

The Syrians have ways of dealing with people like her with limited resources.
 

Groningen

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According to Save the Children there are 2500 children from 30 countries in 3 camps in Syria. In the Netherlands it is so that going to Syria is good enough for prosecution. But how do you want to convict them extra without evidence. The conditions were apparently not bad enough to get pregnant. This IS problem is Europe wide; not just the UK.
 
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