Shapps "promised to scrap HS2 Golborne spur"

[The Ham]

I wish the Curzon Street station was planned to be bigger with classic compatible platforms as well as its own tracks East out of the city towards Tamworth/Nuneaton, to the Sutton Coldfield branch, and to Coventry. It would mean longer distance trains approaching from this direction terminating but it would free up New Street for locals and some longer distance trains at least.

IIRC there's been some suggestions that XC trains could use Moor Street (which is basically next door to Curzon Street) for this reason.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

All the sets that are currently planned to be ordered are classic compatible. It's only in the later phases captive sets for the core Manchester/Birmingham/London would be ordered.

Without the eastern leg, there's no real need for a few captive sets just for Birmingham/Manchester.
The design cost would be enormous.

 

[JamesT]

Without the eastern leg, there's no real need for a few captive sets just for Birmingham/Manchester.
The design cost would be enormous.

Isn’t the point of the captive sets that they’re likely to be cheaper than the classic compatibles? As HS2 will be GC loading gauge you could in theory pick up any standard European rolling stock, rather than needing something specially designed to fit our network.

 

[The Planner]

I wish the Curzon Street station was planned to be bigger with classic compatible platforms as well as its own tracks East out of the city towards Tamworth/Nuneaton, to the Sutton Coldfield branch, and to Coventry. It would mean longer distance trains approaching from this direction terminating but it would free up New Street for locals and some longer distance trains at least.

That is what the Bordesley chords are for, to link up with Moor St which is planned to be expanded as well.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Isn’t the point of the captive sets that they’re likely to be cheaper than the classic compatibles? As HS2 will be GC loading gauge you could in theory pick up any standard European rolling stock, rather than needing something specially designed to fit our network.

Well the number of classic compatible trains on the HS2 Ltd order is said to be 54.
That's enough for all services including the Manchester trains which will divert to the new leg when it opens beyond Crewe.
All services using the Golborne link and the NPR connections to Liverpool and Leeds will also be c-c, as they run onto classic infrastructure.
The same will be true of anything on the truncated eastern leg to Derby, Nottingham and beyond.

You have the potential for captive trains on Birmingham and Manchester services, but also will have the c-c stock that operated before the Manchester leg opened.
Theoretically, HS2 can take GC gauge stock, but the DfT has not taken an off-the-shelf design and shrunk it to c-c size for the UK - it's a new train.
Scaling that design up for GC gauge, for a limited stock of captive trains, is not cheap.
We'll know more when the construction plans for the c-c stock are agreed, and how the Manchester/Golborne legs navigate the parliamentary process.
If the Golborne link is dropped, there will be a reduced need for HS2 trains (Edinburgh services staying on the ECML).

 

[EastisECML]

That is what the Bordesley chords are for, to link up with Moor St which is planned to be expanded as well.

That's a bit of a dog leg for trains coming from the North and East.

 

[The Planner]

That's a bit of a dog leg for trains coming from the North and East.

How is it any different to going into Curzon St?

 

[EastisECML]

How is it any different to going into Curzon St?

Moor Street means going down a bit then turning sharply back towards the city centre. Curzon Street doesn't involve deviating off the current alignment. Sending trains from Leeds, Newcastle, Leicester, etc into Curzon Street is much more direct than that triangle shaped path to get into Moor street. Plus Curzon Street will have grade separation, I don't think Moor street will?

 

[Greybeard33]

Speed isn't necessarily the issue but a lack of capacity at New Street to continue the WMCL services as is and the planned enhancements to local

A service from Birmingham to Crewe via Wolverhampton would still be needed. So running the Scottish service from Curzon Street would not free up capacity at New Street.

All the sets that are currently planned to be ordered are classic compatible. It's only in the later phases captive sets for the core Manchester/Birmingham

The point is that more CC sets will be needed if they are used for Birmingham to Scotland services via the WCML from Crewe. And they are much more costly than standard 125mph EMUs, which could work from New Street to Scotland via Wolverhampton.

 

[The Planner]

Moor Street means going down a bit then turning sharply back towards the city centre. Curzon Street doesn't involve deviating off the current alignment. Sending trains from Leeds, Newcastle, Leicester, etc into Curzon Street is much more direct than that triangle shaped path to get into Moor street. Plus Curzon Street will have grade separation, I don't think Moor street will?

There is no connection between the classic lines and HS2, even if a very early plan suggested passive provision. The other issue you would have is that you would need to fit ETCS to every train you expect to use it. Considering none of the current XC routes are likely to have any ETCS fitment in the next 10-15 years its a very expensive way to crack a nut.

 

[tomuk]

A service from Birmingham to Crewe via Wolverhampton would still be needed. So running the Scottish service from Curzon Street would not free up capacity at New Street.

But the desire is for more frequent stopping local/regional services on Birmingham-Wolverhampton-Stafford/Shrewsbury corridor. Midlands Connect/Birmingham mayor Andy Street are lobbying to get Birmingham-Manchester services onto HS2 as soon as possible before Phase 2b West.

The point is that more CC sets will be needed if they are used for Birmingham to Scotland services via the WCML from Crewe. And they are much more costly than standard 125mph EMUs, which could work from New Street to Scotland via Wolverhampton

They are ordering enough sets, 54?, I assume to cover the ITSS shown in the various HS2 documents. Who's to say that 3x 400m tph to Birmingham and Manchester will be need straightaway? If things as fundamental as the Golborne Link (Main Line) are up for discussion then anything is possible.

 

[EastisECML]

There is no connection between the classic lines and HS2, even if a very early plan suggested passive provision. The other issue you would have is that you would need to fit ETCS to every train you expect to use it. Considering none of the current XC routes are likely to have any ETCS fitment in the next 10-15 years its a very expensive way to crack a nut.

I know, I was speaking hypothetically about a larger Curzon Street station with extra tracks. Separate platforms for HS2 and classic services in the same station. I think they should have went with Arup's Grand Central proposal all those years ago.

 

[Class 170101]

Moor Street means going down a bit then turning sharply back towards the city centre. Curzon Street doesn't involve deviating off the current alignment. Sending trains from Leeds, Newcastle, Leicester, etc into Curzon Street is much more direct than that triangle shaped path to get into Moor street. Plus Curzon Street will have grade separation, I don't think Moor street will?

Moor Street cannot be accessed from the Coventry corridor nor from Manchester direction except by running via New Street, Proof House Jn and Bordsley Chords. All the other routes including from Reading via Solihull with have dtect access to Moor Street.

The Bordsley Chords will link to the existing flyover that runs from Kings Norton towards Landor Street Jn as far as I understand it

https://beleben.files.wordpress.com/2018/07/camp-hill-chords-official-diagram.jpg

 

[tomuk]

Moor Street cannot be accessed from the Coventry corridor nor from Manchester direction except by running via New Street, Proof House Jn and Bordsley Chords. All the other routes including from Reading via Solihull with have dtect access to Moor Street.

The Bordsley Chords will link to the existing flyover that runs from Kings Norton towards Landor Street Jn as far as I understand it

https://beleben.files.wordpress.com/2018/07/camp-hill-chords-official-diagram.jpg

You could access Moor St if the chords were built from Manchester/the North by going via Wolves, Walsall and the Sutton Park line.

 

[The Planner]

You could access Moor St if the chords were built from Manchester/the North by going via Wolves, Walsall and the Sutton Park line.

Why would you though, would take for ever and you just go via New St - Proof House and St Andrews as 170101 suggests.

 

[Greybeard33]

They are ordering enough sets, 54?, I assume to cover the ITSS shown in the various HS2 documents. Who's to say that 3x 400m tph to Birmingham and Manchester will be need straightaway? If things as fundamental as the Golborne Link (Main Line) are up for discussion then anything is possible.

AIUI the 54 CC sets on order are sufficient only for the Phase 1 & 2a services:

Alstom and Hitachi Rail have today confirmed that the Hitachi-Alstom High Speed (HAH-S) 50/50 joint venture has signed contracts with High Speed Two (HS2) to design, build, and maintain the next generation of very high speed trains for HS2 Phase 1 as part of the £1.97 billion contract, including an initial 12-year train maintenance contract.

Hitachi and Alstom win order to build and maintain High Speed Two trains in Britain

Major economic boost – thousands of green jobs created and secured to build new generation of 54 high speed trains in North and Midlands, adding £1.1billion GVA during manufacturing to grow and level up the economy

www.alstom.com

Additional trains for Phase 2b western leg services will not be ordered until the Hybrid Bill has been passed by Parliament.

The ITSS for Phase 1 & 2a does not include a Curzon Street to Scotland service. That appears in the ITSS for the full Phase 2b western leg including the Golborne link, but not in the ITSS for Phase 2b Crewe to Manchester without a WCML connection (see previous posts in this thread).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Confirmed that Golbourne link being removed from High-Speed Rail (Crewe – Manchester) Bill

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/removing-the-golborne-link-from-the-hs2-bill

Government, therefore, intends to remove the Golborne link from the High-Speed Rail (Crewe – Manchester) Bill after second reading. That means that we will no longer be seeking the powers to construct the link as part of this scheme. The Crewe-Manchester HS2 mainline will remain in the Bill as before. Plans for Northern Powerhouse Rail will also be unaffected.

 

[The Planner]

Confirmed that Golbourne link being removed from High-Speed Rail (Crewe – Manchester) Bill

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/removing-the-golborne-link-from-the-hs2-bill

Depends on whether you are a glass half empty or full on how you read that. Its either dead as a dodo (which I suspect it is) or it just means the powers to build it at another time will be done seperately.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Depends on whether you are a glass half empty or full on how you read that. Its either dead as a dodo (which I suspect it is) or it just means the powers to build it at another time will be done seperately.

conveniently released under the cover of leadership challenge hogging the news pages

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So is that also the end of any plan to accelerate WCML services by building by-passes for places like Wigan and Lancaster?
It also weakens the business case for Crewe-Manchester.

 

[The Planner]

So is that also the end of any plan to accelerate WCML services by building by-passes for places like Wigan and Lancaster?
It also weakens the business case for Crewe-Manchester.

No plans existed to end.

 

[tomuk]

conveniently released under the cover of leadership challenge hogging the news pages

It was probably announced to try and keep a few more tory MPs on side. Looks like it Fiddlers Ferry to Preston then.

 

[WatcherZero]

So takeaways from this:
Golborne route is being removed from the Phase 2B (Crewe-Manchester) bill
The route however will continue to be safeguarded and they will continue buying property on it under the hardship scheme in case they change their mind.
They will consider alternatives that deliver more Crewe-Preston capacity and shorter journey times to Scotland than Golborne within the Integrated Rail Plan budget envelop. (Good luck with that considering what the estimate on HS2 to Preston came in at during the original route finalisation)
They will consider upgrading the existing WCML corridor from Crewe or longer high speed track.
They claim that dropping the Golborne link has no impact on journey times or number of paths for HS2 to Scotland. (though this is likely deliberate sleight of hand only comparing with phase 1 rather than phase 2.
They say a revised business case will be published before the second reading of the HS2 2B bill, and the replacement for the Golborne link will come in a supplemental bill.

This chimes with reports last week that the Conservatives were trying to despec the Integrated Rail Plan to save money for tax cuts and that there was further cuts to their NPR scheme to come.

Only positive I can see is if they default to simply upgrading the WCML they will have to improve Wigan NW, so far the only HS2 station they havent committed to spending money on to maximise HS2 local connections.

 

[Mollman]

One hopes that the review of Crewe - Preston is part of a wider WCML North review as there needs to be a realisation from government that you can't add the planned HS2 services onto the WCML north of Preston without impacting the ability to provide more electric hauled Anglo-Scottish freight.

In regard to the Crewe - Preston section I can only see two options, four track the classic route throughout which would involve extra bridges over the Weaver and rebuilding intermediate stations (possibly including creating fast through lines at WBQ & WNW), or building a brand new line from HS2 to join the WCML near Standish with reinstatement of four tracks north of Standish Jnc. Both options would involve grade separating Euxton Jnc and upgrading the freight lines south of Preston to passenger standards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One hopes that the review of Crewe - Preston is part of a wider WCML North review as there needs to be a realisation from government that you can't add the planned HS2 services onto the WCML north of Preston without impacting the ability to provide more electric hauled Anglo-Scottish freight.

Can signalling not be improved to add capacity? The number of services on the north WCML seems rather low compared with further south and yet it's being claimed to be full.

 

[Starmill]

Can signalling not be improved to add capacity? The number of services on the north WCML seems rather low compared with further south and yet it's being claimed to be full.

Surely it is obvious why? Freight climbing hills and Pendolinos don't really mix well. And it's not as if you can just build a passing loop either, because the freight stopping while trying to climb will cost more time overall than can be saved by having an opportunity to overtake it.

A set of Italian-style mountain bypass lines would be a solution, as would an alpine-style incredibly expensive long tunnel. But good luck promoting either in this country.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely it is obvious why? Freight climbing hills and Pendolinos don't really mix well. And it's not as if you can just build a passing loop either, because the freight stopping while trying to climb will cost more time overall than can be saved by having an opportunity to overtake it.

So that's a problem between Lancaster and about half way between Oxenholme and Penrith (or vice versa). That only needs one more fast path for the full HS2 service (for the second Euston-Scotland).

What of the rest of it? It's fairly flat.

 

[The Planner]

Can signalling not be improved to add capacity? The number of services on the north WCML seems rather low compared with further south and yet it's being claimed to be full.

WCML north is down for ETCS, but even that doesn't unlock much and will be unlikely before Phase 2A. Anything Class 6 wise is going S&C I suspect in the future.

 

[Starmill]

So that's a problem between Lancaster and about half way between Oxenholme and Penrith (or vice versa). That only needs one more fast path for the full HS2 service (for the second Euston-Scotland).

What of the rest of it? It's fairly flat.

If it takes a freight train 30 minutes to climb from Oxenholme Lake District station to the summit, it doesn't really matter how much capacity there is anywhere else on the line if you've used half of your line capacity up per hour there. That's kind of the point.

 

[matacaster]

If it takes a freight train 30 minutes to climb from Oxenholme Lake District station to the summit, it doesn't really matter how much capacity there is anywhere else on the line if you've used half of your line capacity up per hour there. That's kind of the point.

Would it make sense then to provide heavy fast freight trains with an electric banker instead?