Sheffield - London LM+XC fares

[pt15sb]

Hi all,

I've seen this question covered before, but couldn't find anything more recent and definitive.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=92647
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=107106

Looking to use this fare this weekend, and trying to plan return on Sunday and was wondering if XC from Sheffield to Birmingham and then LM from Birmingham to Euston is valid for this.

Thanks!

 

[clagmonster]

Routeing permissions for Sheffield to London Group are: AM+KP, MS+EE, MS+EE+AA, SH+HU, SH+HU+AA and SY
http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/yellow_pages.pdf page 1704

As far as I can see, none of the appropriate maps feature the WCML into Euston, so there isn't actually a permitted route for the operator restriction. When it is an operator restriction in such a case, I don't know what the published procedure is. The shortest route following the restriction would be via Tamworth and Weedon.

 

[yorkie]

It was a permitted route, but Virgin Trains threw a major wobbler.

ATOC then - at VT's request - removed all permitted routes, without permission of any other company, other than the direct route via the Midland Mainline. This was illegal but they got away with it, due to weak regulation.

Most got re-instated but not that route, as VT got their way!

It is a reasonable route, but the DfT claim it is unreasonable, as they want to support VT's view as they are in cahoots with them.

Anyway, it is (apparently) permitted by an "easement" although I can't find this documented...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...When it is an operator restriction in such a case, I don't know what the published procedure is. ....

If it was a geographical restriction it would be all permitted routes from origin to the named place, and from there to destination.

So you could argue that it would be all permitted routes from origin to stations served by both train companies, and from those stations to destination, excluding any routes that involve doubling back.

Certainly the intention is to allow changing at Birmingham, in addition to changing at Tamworth.

 

[Merseysider]

Via Derby and Tamworth is fine but I wouldn't risk going via Brum. Looking at it geographically, [from the POV of staff, in the event of a problem] it seems a rather unnecessary detour and I find it hard to believe that it'd save any time.

In light of the fact that Tamworth has only 1tph, rather than the 2tph I expected it to have, I stand corrected. It may be a necessary detour.

 

[Paul Kelly]

For what it's worth, booking engines should allow it if you go via Birmingham and Nuneaton, but not via Coventry.

Edit: I can get https://uk.sleeper.scot/ to show plenty of itineraries this way on Sunday on the Super Off-Peak LM AND XC ONLY fare, if I specify a via point of Coleshill Parkway and under Additional Options, select not to show on journeys on Virgin Trains.

 

[clagmonster]

If it was a geographical restriction it would be all permitted routes from origin to the named place, and from there to destination.

So you could argue that it would be all permitted routes from origin to stations served by both train companies, and from those stations to destination, excluding any routes that involve doubling back.

Certainly the intention is to allow changing at Birmingham, in addition to changing at Tamworth.

Yorkie, I agree on what would happen if it were a geographical restriction. However, the trouble with the argument of being valid to anywhere served by both companies is that in some instances, although I don't think this is one, you could end up with something absurd being valid.

I'd agree Birmingham is a reasonable route and should be permitted, certainly with tickets with such a restriction.

 

[yorkie]

Yorkie, I agree on what would happen if it were a geographical restriction. However, the trouble with the argument of being valid to anywhere served by both companies is that in some instances, although I don't think this is one, you could end up with something absurd being valid.

In that hypothetical case, they are welcome to come up with a sensible hypothetical solution.

 

[All Line Rover]

Via Derby and Tamworth is fine but I wouldn't risk going via Brum. Looking at it geographically, [from the POV of staff, in the event of a problem] it seems a rather unnecessary detour and I find it hard to believe that it'd save any time.

Only 1tph to Sheffield calls at Tamworth. XC staff are perfectly well aware that Tamworth is not (for the time being - i.e. not until all XC trains call at Tamworth, which they should) always an appropriate interchange station.

The OP is very unlikely to experience any problems travelling via Birmingham.

 

[Merseysider]

Only 1tph to Sheffield calls at Tamworth. XC staff are perfectly well aware that Tamworth is not (for the time being - i.e. not until all XC trains call at Tamworth, which they should) always an appropriate interchange station.

The OP is very unlikely to experience any problems travelling via Birmingham.

Ah - I was under the impression all XCs did stop at Tammy! If it is, as you say, only 1tph calling there then Birmingham may well save time. Post amended.

 

[All Line Rover]

Ah - I was under the impression all XCs did stop at Tammy! If it is, as you say, only 1tph calling there then Birmingham may well save time. Post amended.

I've just looked up the timetable and for most of the day it is actually 1 train every 2 hours! Pathetic really. Tamworth has gained a much improved Trent Valley service in recent years and deserves better connections. How can XC trains be so slow when they call at so few intermediate stations!?

 

[furlong]

so there isn't actually a permitted route for the operator restriction.

The new Conditions of Travel from 1st October surprisingly remove the existing requirement to follow a permitted route when there is an operator restriction:

13.3 Your Ticket may show that it is valid only on certain train services, such as those of a particular Train Company... If no... Train Company is shown, then

You might draw the inference that in these circumstances you may travel on any reasonable route for the end-to-end journey that satisfies the operator restriction...

(I shall no longer feel bound by the Routeing Guide when travelling on a ticket that shows "that it is valid only on certain train services, such as those of a particular Train Company, or on trains travelling via a certain route or routes" if my alternative is objectively reasonable, for example, faster or with better changes.)

 

[pt15sb]

Thanks for all the replies and advice! The reason I was inquiring if Birmingham would be valid, as I was aiming for a quick BoJ to have dinner with a friend. Seems like that won't be an issue?

For what it's worth, booking engines should allow it if you go via Birmingham and Nuneaton, but not via Coventry.

Edit: I can get https://uk.sleeper.scot/ to show plenty of itineraries this way on Sunday on the Super Off-Peak LM AND XC ONLY fare, if I specify a via point of Coleshill Parkway and under Additional Options, select not to show on journeys on Virgin Trains.

Thanks for the link...never have used the Sleeper engine before now, but it looks very useful and user-friendly.

I've just looked up the timetable and for most of the day it is actually 1 train every 2 hours! Pathetic really. Tamworth has gained a much improved Trent Valley service in recent years and deserves better connections. How can XC trains be so slow when they call at so few intermediate stations!?

And the timing is quite poor as well. Looking at Sunday it looks like most connections in Tamworth are 50+ minutes as the Midland train arrives around the same time as the CrossCountry train and doesn't meet the 5-minute minimum connection.

 

[button_boxer]

I've just looked up the timetable and for most of the day it is actually 1 train every 2 hours! Pathetic really. Tamworth has gained a much improved Trent Valley service in recent years and deserves better connections. How can XC trains be so slow when they call at so few intermediate stations!?

There's only 1tp2h direct from Sheffield to Tamworth, but you can always change at Derby as the Nottingham-Birmingham/Cardiff trains (which all call at both Burton and Tamworth) connect nicely, southbound leaves just after the voyager, northbound arrives just before.