Sheffield - Rolling Stock Graveyard ?

[61653 HTAFC]

I commute Chesterfield-Sheffield. The last time I saw an electric train was in the summer, passing a Pendolino on the M6. My son said it was a tram because it had a pantograph...

However if your son was growing up in Leeds or Liverpool he'd not have that frame of reference!

 

[ohgoditsjames]

However if your son was growing up in Leeds or Liverpool he'd not have that frame of reference!

Instead he’d have Mersey Rail and the extensive Leeds commuting services

 

[Skymonster]

Funnily enough all the cities on the Cinderella line (the MML) haven’t got it as good as the majority of major cities in the country. It’s obvious why it’s known as the Cinderella line...

Sheffield has had a double-whammy with the crap / ancient stock at both Northern and EMT / EMR.

Northern might soon get better in some respects (195s) but EMR is just getting more hand-me-down garbage such as 170 Tubonasties, 180 Fire Bombers, 20 year old 360 electrics dumped by Anglia, and LNER HSTs with millions of miles on the clock. Never mind, the 222s with the worn out interiors are still around and we’ll get a few Hitachi trains in three years time, half a decade after most other long distance TOCs.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Sheffield has had a double-whammy with the crap / ancient stock at both Northern and EMT / EMR.

Northern might soon get better in some respects (195s) but EMR is just getting more hand-me-down garbage such as 170 Tubonasties, 180 Fire Bombers, 20 year old 360 electrics dumped by Anglia, and LNER HSTs with millions of miles on the clock. Never mind, the 222s with the worn out interiors are still around and we’ll get a few Hitachi trains in three years time, half a decade after most other long distance TOCs.

And even when we do get the new Hitachi trains we’ll be getting 5 car units that might be doubled up every now and then!

 

[ashworth]

But the original poster does have a point. The West Midlands about to get their 2nd batch of new trains so they can cast off their old to the East. I know that happened in BR but interesting one franchise can constantly provide new rolling stock and another can’t.

Yes, I can see why the people of the East Midlands just like Sheffield feel they have had a bad deal. With the break up of Central Trains the West Midlands got the newest trains with the 170’s. Now that they have much newer stock and more to come the East Midlands can have these old trains back. The East Midlands has been left with a shortage of stock during this time which has included the Norwich to Liverpool route through Sheffield and very sparse services in parts of Lincolnshire.

It would have been nice for the East Midlands to finally get some new trains for their local services and the West Midlands to keep the 170’s. Even now I’m not sure that EMR are going to get enough 170’s to avoid overcrowding. XC certainly need more capacity but to be getting the centre carriages from these old 170’s is just another kick in the teeth for East Midlands local services.

 

[43066]

the shining light is the cast of LNER HSTs for the next 12 months

Possibly longer than 12 months if the (informed) rumours I’ve been hearing are to be believed...

 

[D365]

The infrastructure of the station is also well past its sell by date, a track layout dating back to 1972!
It desperately needs remodelling, higher speeds, bi directional signalling, new bay platform at the north end between 8 & 6(yes would need to demolish cleaners messroom)etc.
It really should have been done before Derby, it’s passenger numbers are over double that of Derby.

Yes but imagine having to tear up the tracks again in ten years to get HS2 platforms in.

Sheffield has had a double-whammy with the crap / ancient stock at both Northern and EMT / EMR.

Northern might soon get better in some respects (195s) but EMR is just getting more hand-me-down garbage such as 170 Tubonasties, 180 Fire Bombers, 20 year old 360 electrics dumped by Anglia, and LNER HSTs with millions of miles on the clock. Never mind, the 222s with the worn out interiors are still around and we’ll get a few Hitachi trains in three years time, half a decade after most other long distance TOCs.

Nasty? The Northern 170s are luxury compared to the Pacers!

Class 180: highly regarded passenger experience, aside from the middling reliability
Class 360: Some spotters are still upset that the Class 321s are being retired!
HSTs: Spotters also upset at this.

I don't get forums sometimes...

 

[Killingworth]

Brought up in a North Eastern heritage location my earliest rail memories are of ECML Pacific hauled services and Tyneside electrics. Class 40 diesels followed by Deltics and HSTs. First generation DMUs seemed great. I left before electrification.

On arrival in Sheffield I found the first generation DMUs still running and MML services hauled by 45s and 46s. It seemed a long time before HSTs arrived. Worse, I discovered that Manchester, less than 35 mile away, was being served by one train an hour taking an hour. Inter-city service this was not.

And now we're still awaiting electrification, sometime never. We're glad to have Pacers because the alternative was no trains at all. The line to Manchester has an improved timetable, suggesting a journey of nearer 55 minutes than the hour of 40 years ago. But most trains are delayed, taking more than an hour, are often cancelled and frequently overloaded.

Crosscountry services are improved, although rolling stock is showing the strain of that increased use. They offer an hourly journey time of about 40 minutes for 30 miles to Leeds but other services take an hour or more.

The ECML at Doncaster can be reached by XC in 20 minutes, but other services take longer for about 18 miles.

Sheffield to London may be achieved in 2 hours but most services take longer. Leeds is further from the capital yet average journey times are no worse and often better.

Sheffield is in a railway backwater, and rolling stock goes with that. However rolling stock and timetables are only part of it for those wanting to use the services. Performance is dire. Not as dire as the Highland Mainline, but passenger numbers are greater and distances much shorter.

The M1 running North and South skirts the east side of the city but road links to the west across the Pennines are still basic causing many to head north for the M62. Rail should be doing so much better.

MML paused, effectively cancelled until we see work actually starting. Near my home is a site surveyed years ago for an electricity feeder station for that project. The HS2 team didn't seem to know about it, nor the team working on the delayed Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme.

As an advocate of rail it's disheartening to sit in a city so badly served and largely ignored by those responsible for rail investment.

 

[tbtc]

It is funny that most places have this argument. But I don’t think Sheffield is any worse off than other cities under the EMR TOC.

You'll have to remind me which of the other cities under the EMR TOC have Pacers and/or 150s then?

I commute Chesterfield-Sheffield. The last time I saw an electric train was in the summer, passing a Pendolino on the M6. My son said it was a tram because it had a pantograph...

In fairness we have had some electric trains around here recently - albeit the 373s on their way to Booths to be chopped up...

And HS2 only on a branch. An own goal by the City Council.

Yeah - we could have had fast and frequent services to both London and Leeds from a transport hub that has heavy rail/ light rail/ bus station etc (so lots of good connections to the rest of the Sheffield city region). Instead, we are getting an hourly London service that will trundle along the existing Chesterfield route before it gets out of second gear (and no fast Leeds service, under current plans). So short sighted.

 

[Failed Unit]

Lincoln.

 

[TC60054]

Lincoln.

Lincoln no longer gets regular Pacers on a daily basis, with most Northern services now being booked 158s (soon 195s).

 

[woodhouse122]

Lincoln no longer gets regular Pacers on a daily basis, with most Northern services now being booked 158s (soon 195s).

Plus they get Azuma trains direct to London (yes they have to put up with 153s on the peterborough and Grimsby services ,but that will soon alter )

 

[tbtc]

You'll have to remind me which of the other cities under the EMR TOC have Pacers and/or 150s then?

Lincoln.

Lincoln no longer gets regular Pacers on a daily basis, with most Northern services now being booked 158s (soon 195s).

Precisely - I've not seen a Pacer on any of the Lincoln departures at Sheffield Midland for a while now.

Meanwhile, talking of the "other cities under the EMR TOC", they are all going to have post-privatisation fleets in a couple of years (when EMR get the 170/804s) whilst Sheffield will keep its 1980s Sprinters for the foreseeable future. Yay!

 

[Haydn1971]

I seem to have touched a nerve !

 

[ohgoditsjames]

I seem to have touched a nerve !

Amusingly enough it was a thread I’ve been considering making for a few weeks now so you’ve only done me a favour

 

[Killingworth]

I seem to have touched a nerve !

You knew you would

The rolling stock wouldn't be quite so bad if only the trains ran to time and had enough seats.

Here's today's performance, a typical Friday, on my local line between Manchester and Sheffield; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/SHF/from/MAN/2019-12-06/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt

6 out of 50 arrived within 5 minutes of schedule. 2 were cancelled and one was diverted round the Dore curve to miss Sheffield altogether. It is similar most days.

Today's performance from Sheffield to Manchester was slightly better; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...06/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt

During the day 16 arrived within 5 minutes, still less than half, and 2 were cancelled.

About 5 trains out of almost 100 arrived within a minute of timetable on this route today. There don't seem to have been any particular big issues to cause this.

 

[jopsuk]

At any given time somewhere has to have the oldest trains

 

[Killingworth]

At any given time somewhere has to have the oldest trains

The Isle of Wight!

 

[johnnychips]

I've just moved from Donny to Sheffield and have to commute back there. The trains are excellent: 185s, 170s, less Pacers and incredibly 158s on the stoppers. The punctuality is fine to acceptable given the floods. However, whenever I am on Sheffield station, the non-human voice is giving delays and cancellations to absolutely everywhere else. Another robot tells me not to slip or smoke or leave my luggage unattended. The robot tells people that passengers for Manchester Airport should travel in the front of the double 185 when it should be the rear, and continues to do so when a single 185 turns up. The information is appalling in general, and was during the floods. I only heard one 'real human' voice once on the PA during the problems of the bad weather, and I've been on the station a lot. Of course, I suppose EMR is responsible as they run the station, compared with Donny (LNER, Northern?) where real human voices are up to date and a lot more informative.

So the moral is: if you have to travel from Sheffield to anywhere, choose Donny!

 

[Killingworth]

I've just moved from Donny to Sheffield and have to commute back there. The trains are excellent: 185s, 170s, less Pacers and incredibly 158s on the stoppers. The punctuality is fine to acceptable given the floods. However, whenever I am on Sheffield station, the non-human voice is giving delays and cancellations to absolutely everywhere else. Another robot tells me not to slip or smoke or leave my luggage unattended. The robot tells people that passengers for Manchester Airport should travel in the front of the double 185 when it should be the rear, and continues to do so when a single 185 turns up. The information is appalling in general, and was during the floods. I only heard one 'real human' voice once on the PA during the problems of the bad weather, and I've been on the station a lot. Of course, I suppose EMR is responsible as they run the station, compared with Donny (LNER, Northern?) where real human voices are up to date and a lot more informative.

So the moral is: if you have to travel from Sheffield to anywhere, choose Donny!

Indeed. The Don valley is the quickest line out of Sheffield, connecting to fast ECML electric services.

 

[Failed Unit]

Precisely - I've not seen a Pacer on any of the Lincoln departures at Sheffield Midland for a while now.

Meanwhile, talking of the "other cities under the EMR TOC", they are all going to have post-privatisation fleets in a couple of years (when EMR get the 170/804s) whilst Sheffield will keep its 1980s Sprinters for the foreseeable future. Yay!

Pacers still run to Lincoln. Saw a 3 car 144 only last week heading to Leeds around 1730.

 

[D365]

The Isle of Wight!

OT but are the D78s older or newer than the Class 313s? Trying to work out which (out of Southern or IoW) will have the older trains once the 38TS is replaced.

 

[Domh245]

OT but are the D78s older or newer than the Class 313s? Trying to work out which (out of Southern or IoW) will have the older trains once the 38TS is replaced.

Class 313 built between Feb 76 and April 77 with first in service August 1976
D78 built between 78 and 81 with first in service January 1980

 

[robbeech]

Precisely - I've not seen a Pacer on any of the Lincoln departures at Sheffield Midland for a while now.

There's certainly been a couple of diagrams with 142s covering for the usual 158/150 on the Lincoln runs this week. Quite a few will be today with the Sheffield/Gainsborough Central services diverted to Lincoln although i appreciate that isn't quite the same.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Sheffield has always had a bad deal. It all goes back to George Hudson whose 1840 North Midland Railway from Derby to Leeds missed Sheffield entirely. He preferred the level route via Barrow Hill to avoid expensive tunnelling.

 

[JonathanH]

It would have been nice for the East Midlands to finally get some new trains for their local services and the West Midlands to keep the 170’s.

It doesn't work like that though does it. The newest stock should go to the routes that can afford them with cascades as appropriate to secondary routes. Therefore, unremunerative routes get older trains. That is sensible business practice.

 

[philthetube]

I have said before that the whole idea of new trains for Northern is a con for those of us who will be getting 30 year old units which have been tarted up. Both of the services through Castleford will and are slowly having Pacers replaced by 150/1s and the like which is supposed to be an improvement, I don't think so.

Why the concern about new trains, tarted 185's are vastly superior to some of the new rubbish coming on line, reliability comfort and speed are the important points, not age.

I am sure there are many commuters about who would wich that other areas got the new trains and they received the proven cast offs.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Surely the "rolling stock graveyard" is just up the road in Rotherham anyway...?

 

[LMS 4F]

It doesn't work like that though does it. The newest stock should go to the routes that can afford them with cascades as appropriate to secondary routes. Therefore, unremunerative routes get older trains. That is sensible business practice.

Yes that is undoubtedly true but what really gets up my nose is Politicians saying we are improving things with new trains for Northern. What they don't say is some new trains and as for the rest much as before.
I would like to ride on a 170 or a 185 on my trips to Leeds but that isn't going to happen and I and many others in this part of the world and nearby are being palmed off with stock no better and in some ways worse than what we've had to put up with for years.

 

[woodhouse122]

Why the concern about new trains, tarted 185's are vastly superior to some of the new rubbish coming on line, reliability comfort and speed are the important points, not age.

185s might be nice to ride, but they are not nice when they are rammed ,they are inadequate for the amount of passengers that use the service -it is near impossible to get a seat on the service between sheffield and manchester (unless you book a few months in advance that is ) i dread to think what the service to manchester will be like when EMR give up the liverpool -nottingham service especially if TPE get the route