Sheffield - Rotherham Tram Train Service updates

[ALEMASTER]

Tell me where there it says how much it costs for my journey between any two stations. It doesn't. It says the 3 fare bands but how will anyone know which fare band their journey is in? Day and period tickets as well as multi modal are all there but not for people wanting to make an occasional journey.

I'd be interested to know why other networks can cope with part closure of lines for engineering but Supertram can't. Elsewhere can keep customers so clearly there is a Supertram specific issue there. It's been on a gradual decline since 2011 as well so I don't think you can entirely blame the summer closures.

2011/12 - 15.0
2012/13 - 14.4
2013/14 - 12.6
2014/15 - 11.5
2015/16 - 11.6
2016/17 - 12.6
2017/18 - 12.3
2018/19 - 11.9

Think for individual single fares most travel companies use a journey planner, have to agree the Stagecoach one isn't the best though!

I don't think most other systems have had the level of disruption from rail replacement Supertram has had, with line closures for the entire summer most years now since 2013. Passengers find other ways of travel, usually car, the City Centre with all the redevelopment that has been going on under the Heart of the City project has seen lots of new multi storey car parks built and a new section of inner ring road and not all are returning to using public transport when the tramway reopens. It is also worth noting bus travel has declined in Sheffield too.

 

[ALEMASTER]

The line through Rotherham presents a surprising amount of complexity for scheduling and operating - both lines towards Sheffield have single track sections with a junction outside Rotherham Central and a crossover at Parkgate. Both Northern and Supertram run 3 services an hour that aren't evenly spaced (in Supertram's case partly due to the geography of the single track section) and there are also freight trains running through on the same line as Supertram.

 

[Dr Day]

Tell me where there it says how much it costs for my journey between any two stations. It doesn't. It says the 3 fare bands but how will anyone know which fare band their journey is in? Day and period tickets as well as multi modal are all there but not for people wanting to make an occasional journey.

I'd be interested to know why other networks can cope with part closure of lines for engineering but Supertram can't. Elsewhere can keep customers so clearly there is a Supertram specific issue there. It's been on a gradual decline since 2011 as well so I don't think you can entirely blame the summer closures.

2011/12 - 15.0
2012/13 - 14.4
2013/14 - 12.6
2014/15 - 11.5
2015/16 - 11.6
2016/17 - 12.6
2017/18 - 12.3
2018/19 - 11.9

Part of the reason is that the Sheffield system is older, hence more of it is becoming life-expired and in need of renewal.

 

[edwin_m]

Part of the reason is that the Sheffield system is older, hence more of it is becoming life-expired and in need of renewal.

The proportion of street running probably makes a difference here too. Rails on ballasted track can be unclipped and replaced quite easily, and may last longer anyway. Embedded track has to be broken out of the road surface, and some of the trackform designs for early second-generation UK tramways (though I'm not sure if Sheffield is one of them) didn't really consider ease of replacement.

 

[markymark2000]

The line through Rotherham presents a surprising amount of complexity for scheduling and operating - both lines towards Sheffield have single track sections with a junction outside Rotherham Central and a crossover at Parkgate. Both Northern and Supertram run 3 services an hour that aren't evenly spaced (in Supertram's case partly due to the geography of the single track section) and there are also freight trains running through on the same line as Supertram.

Parkgate I don't think is an issue because of how short that section is and southbound into Sheffield, the single track section isn't that bad. I do think that if the national rail services weren't in place, it could be done with services passing at Meadowhall South or Rotherham Central. It's the fact NR is added in and you have the congestion between Meadowhall and Rotherham on that single line section.

With the 2tph stoppers to Doncaster (1tph extends to adwick), these would ideally be half hourly and the other service to Leeds and so mixing them up, you would have to have trams at 0, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 and trains at 5, 15, 25, 35, 45, 55. Can all this be done within the existing infrastructure? I think it would be tight.

 

[unlevel42]

There are some inaccuracies in this thread which have been addressed many times.


"The tram network in Sheffield is quite limited it doesn’t serve SUFC, Moor Market & Leisure Area, Crucible Theatre, Northern General Hospital, Hallamshire Hospital or the vibrant nightlife areas of Ecclesall/London/Abbeydale Roads."

It serves SUFC (Granville Road)
It serves the Crucible (Cathedral or Granville Road)
It serves the Hallamshire and the surrounding hospitals.(University) If you have mobility issues a 5/8 minute 2 stop bus service is available.

Nightlife on Abbeydale Road?
All attempts to create extensions have been stopped by Government.
Tram Train has nothing to do with politics, funded as a trial
Parkgate terminus chosen to remove congestion at Rotherham Central
Tram Trains can run through to Shalesmoor.
Shalesmoor has always been used as a terminus in the time table -it certainly doesn't confuse, neither are the turnouts the wrong way and in any case there is plenty of room for a siding to the north

We await the report on success or otherwise, the fate of the route and TramTrain vehicles, and the new franchise.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Rotherham is a small town in need of some regeneration so the demand for travelling in that direction is limited, however there is a strong commuter flow from people that live in the Rotherham area and work in Sheffield and/or enjoy Sheffield's night life. The Northern Train service cannot be increased due to limitations caused by the single track line between Rotherham and Meadowhall along with congestion at Sheffield Station.

But how much does the cost of the tram-train compare with the likely cost of fixing the single track line, and - say - providing longer/newer trains on the Sheffield-Rotherham routes?

The Tram Train provides more rail services between Rotherham and Sheffield, serves a lot of intermediate stops that the train misses including the Ikea retail park at Carbrook, the Arena and the Olympic Legacy Park & College - as well of course as Parkgate shopping park which has a park & ride car park attached.

It's a long time since I lived in Sheffield and used the tram regularly, but my memory is that the stops between Sheffield and Meadowhall were generally very lightly used. Trams to Meadowhall used to be pretty busy - but, as I recall almost entirely with passengers travelling the whole way from Sheffield to Meadowhall, with the intermediate stops mostly seeming a bit irrelevant. Out of interest, has that changed? Are people actually using those stops now?

Also worth pointing out that tram-change interchange at Meadowhall is pretty good, if only an integrated ticketing system could be set up. Couldn't that have been used to cater almost as well for the (I asssume, relatively small) number of journeys from Rotherham to intermediate tram stops?

Tram Train also goes right into Sheffield City Centre proper whereas the rail station is right out on the edge of the Centre, so another potential benefit is passengers coming from the Doncaster/Leeds direction wanting Sheffield City Centre can interchange from train to tram at Rotherham Central on basically the same platform.

But as I recall, train-tram interchange at Sheffield isn't that bad. Again with the proviso of integrated ticketing, wouldn't Rotherham-Sheffield by train then Sheffield station to ultimate destination by tram have been a decent (and less expensive) alternative, had the money spent on the tram-train project been spent improving the rail route instead?

 

[Trainfan344]

No point in fixing that bit without putting more capacity in at Sheffied Station. Tram Trains are a very good idea, you can alight at Rotherham Central and wander down to the Tram Train platform without having to move over bridges or up stairs. If you get out at Sheffield you still have to go up to the footbridge and along to get to the trams.

 

[markymark2000]

There are some inaccuracies in this thread which have been addressed many times.

Parkgate terminus chosen to remove congestion at Rotherham Central
Tram Trains can run through to Shalesmoor.
Shalesmoor has always been used as a terminus in the time table -it certainly doesn't confuse, neither are the turnouts the wrong way and in any case there is plenty of room for a siding to the north

We await the report on success or otherwise, the fate of the route and TramTrain vehicles, and the new franchise.

Just to put my view on this.
PArkgate as a terminus I have no issues with as it is helpful to not have the congestion at Rotherham. If the tram train got extended north, it could prove to be a bit more popular for people accessing the retail park who can't access it by bus or such a bus journey would take too long.
Tram Trains can run to Shalesmoor but right now, wouldn't you have to terminate in the westbound platform and then on the journey back into the city, you cross over the points. I am surprised that it doesn't cause confusion. For occasional use it might be ok but I can see it being confusing happening regularly as you wouldn't know which platform to be on. If tram trains were to be extended, I think you would have to have an opposite set of points or a siding to the north so all eastbound trams use the same platform.

I am interested to see if SYPTE and the Gov think the tram train is a success or not. It has it's advantages and for lighter used rail lines, I can see it being a good use. Rotherham just can become a bit too much of a congestion hotspot with it being single track to Meadowhall so 1 small delay can snowball quite quickly.

 

[johnnychips]

Just to catch on a point made up thread. Passengers on the route to Meadowhall are not just going to the Interchange, but go to Meadowhall South (which can be just as convenient, depending which shops you plan to visit), IKEA, Valley Centretainment (for bowling, cinemas) and the Arena if there is something on. The other stations are much more lightly used, though to be fair I’ve never seen Nunnery P+R in the peaks. Trams do slow down but not stop if nobody has requested a halt and there is nobody on the platform: this seems unusual on UK systems - when I’ve been on others they seem to stop everywhere, though I stand to be corrected.

There was an idea to serve Magna, but because it lies on the heavy rail section, it would need proper platforms and a footbridge with lifts rather than the ‘barrow crossing’ type arrangement you see at normal tram stops. Obviously this would be very expensive. I presume you could have a platform on one side, serving trains to Sheffield only - I don’t know if this was considered, and turnarounds are quite tight: the tram-train can get up a good speed between Rotherham and Meadowhall South.

Finally I need to mention the conductors on the trams. The vast majority are smashing, knowledgeable and friendly with passengers, and are assiduous in fare collection. I can’t imagine there is much evasion.

 

[markymark2000]

Just to catch on a point made up thread. Passengers on the route to Meadowhall are not just going to the Interchange, but go to Meadowhall South (which can be just as convenient, depending which shops you plan to visit), IKEA, Valley Centretainment (for bowling, cinemas) and the Arena if there is something on. The other stations are much more lightly used, though to be fair I’ve never seen Nunnery P+R in the peaks.

There was an idea to serve Magna, but because it lies on the heavy rail section, it would need proper platforms and a footbridge with lifts rather than the ‘barrow crossing’ type arrangement you see at normal tram stops. Obviously this would be very expensive. I presume you could have a platform on one side, serving trains to Sheffield only - I don’t know if this was considered, and turnarounds are quite tight: the tram-train can get up a good speed between Rotherham and Meadowhall South.

Finally I need to mention the conductors on the trams. The vast majority are smashing, knowledgeable and friendly with passengers, and are assiduous in fare collection. I can’t imagine there is much evasion.

Shame about the Magna thing. That could have been a good stop.

The conductors which I had on trams I have been on have all been decent. I don't think there is much fare evasion on Supertram or Blackpool because the conductors are always present and quick to get to you. You are always checked between your boarding stop and the next stop.

 

[johntea]

Are the conductors still patrolling the trams in the current circumstances?

Amsterdam I noticed is a slightly complicated concept in that you have to 'tap in' AND 'tap out' when boarding and alighting from public transport, even with a tourist multi day ticket (Not sure what the consequences if any would be should you forgot to do this!)

 

[Gostav]

Shame about the Magna thing. That could have been a good stop.

The conductors which I had on trams I have been on have all been decent. I don't think there is much fare evasion on Supertram or Blackpool because the conductors are always present and quick to get to you. You are always checked between your boarding stop and the next stop.

It is unusual in Europe for every tram still have a conductor, when I first boarded Sheffield tram l thought there would be a ticket machine on the board.

 

[Harpers Tate]

There was an idea to serve Magna, but because it lies on the heavy rail section, it would need proper platforms and a footbridge with lifts rather than the ‘barrow crossing’ type arrangement you see at normal tram stops. Obviously this would be very expensive. I presume you could have a platform on one side, serving trains to Sheffield only - I don’t know if this was considered, and turnarounds are quite tight: the tram-train can get up a good speed between Rotherham and Meadowhall South.

In terms of a station at Magna - another option not mentioned there is for a separate platform, either to the side of the existing twin track and separated from it - would require ONE new junction at the Rotherham end of it (since there is already a siding, disused I believe, coming off the single line at the Sheffield end) or a single platform on the NR line as you say, but with bi-directional running - again requiring an extra junction at the Rotherham end. The former would presumably allow extra paths for NR services if necessary. Oh, and the line speed limit between Rotherham and Meadowhall South is not more than 40mph.

 

[D365]

Are the conductors still patrolling the trams in the current circumstances?

I imagine so, contactless payments are essentially mandatory under the current circumstances since having (finally) been rolled out last year.

 

[DimTim]

There was an announcement in the March 2020 budget of funding for the Magna tram stop & Park & Ride.Whether with the current financial outlay it remains is questionable! Sheffield City Region received £166m & tram stop specifically mentioned in award. Park & Ride 150 spaces.

 

[Steddenm]

Used the Tram Train today (essential journey) between Parkgate and Cathedral and hardly anybody on at all.

Also BBC Look North mentioned something about funding being made available to secure the "short term" future of the Supertram as a whole. Didn't catch the full story though.