Sheffield/Rotherham Tram-Train update

[D365]

Another 399 died at Halfway this morning, though was moved after only about 20 minutes.

Is Halfway fast becoming cursed ground?

 

[edwin_m]

Were they not always planned as dual voltage under the current scheme?

Back in the very early days the plan was for DC only.

 

[takno]

I would LOVE to know why this project has been so "difficult". I know I'm no expert, but to this layman's simple understanding...

Rocket science isn't particularly complicated - you need fuel and a source of oxygen and mix it up right. Rocket technology *is* complicated because it turns out to be very important that when you do the mixing the rocket ends up going upwards. Every. Single. Time.

This project was designed as a proof of concept because we didn't know what exactly was going to be involved and the problems that would be encountered. Everybody kind of started off with the attitude you outlined in your post, and the cost was incurred as people discovered that things were a little more complicated than that in real life. I mean, still not as complicated as getting a rocket into space, but then creating the technology for that costs billions.

 

[Harpers Tate]

...and that is precisely my "problem". All anyone ever seems to be able to say is a blanket "....more complicated than expected.......". And my question is - what was, and why was it? The question isn't "what problems"; it's "what NEW problems...." What is so special and unique about this specific little bit of railway electrification - except the voltage?

If I were a cynic (perish the thought!) I'd be tempted to think that someone somewhere actually wanted this project to cost three times what it would have cost any other organisation worldwide, and thus be written off as proof that trains and trams cannot and will not mix in the UK; only in other countries.

 

[snowball]

...and that is precisely my "problem". All anyone ever seems to be able to say is a blanket "....more complicated than expected.......". And my question is - what was, and why was it? The question isn't "what problems"; it's "what NEW problems...." What is so special and unique about this specific little bit of railway electrification - except the voltage?

If I were a cynic (perish the thought!) I'd be tempted to think that someone somewhere actually wanted this project to cost three times what it would have cost any other organisation worldwide, and thus be written off as proof that trains and trams cannot and will not mix in the UK; only in other countries.

The most informative (though not very) thing I've read about it was, surprisingly enough, in Rail magazine, I think in the issue before the one that came out this week. It turned out new equipment had to be designed for dual current OLE, which apparently nobody had done before, and all the possible electrical failure modes had to be analysed. (As you may know, AC high voltage and DC low voltage require completely different earthing arrangements.)

I hope much more detailed info will be published once the tram-trains are running.

 

[takno]

...and that is precisely my "problem". All anyone ever seems to be able to say is a blanket "....more complicated than expected.......". And my question is - what was, and why was it? The question isn't "what problems"; it's "what NEW problems...." What is so special and unique about this specific little bit of railway electrification - except the voltage?

If I were a cynic (perish the thought!) I'd be tempted to think that someone somewhere actually wanted this project to cost three times what it would have cost any other organisation worldwide, and thus be written off as proof that trains and trams cannot and will not mix in the UK; only in other countries.

How widely is this actually done in other countries? Do those countries have the same depth of safety culture on their railways as we do? Do they have the same level of costs or safety for construction workers generally? Do they have similar issues with signalling systems? Do they wire to 25kv standards and clearances as part of the process? Do they have a greater willingness to cancel services while work is done, or pay no compensation to operators when trains cannot run? Were the costs of similar schemes accurately accounted, or were renewals staff used to do the job and not charged as part of the project?

I agree it hasn't been cheap, and if things had gone more smoothly it could probably have been done for perhaps a third less. Arguably the experience from this job will mean things will go smoother on future tram-train projects and we can knock some of that third off the estimates.

Overall I'd say the costs suggest that this isn't worth doing except perhaps on lightly-used lines with no prospect of electrification in the 10 year time frame, or lines which could be turned over to light rail generally except for periodic freight and ECS trains needing to use the route at limited speeds.

 

[Greybeard33]

I would LOVE to know why this project has been so "difficult". I know I'm no expert, but to this layman's simple understanding:

1: The existing rail track; the trams have heavy-rail compatible wheels, so no change required there. No rocket science needed. Even if it all needed relaying, it's still not rocket science.
2: New points on existing track; ditto
3: New track away from the "main line"; just like existing tram lines, so nothing newly-invented there
4: Catenary; It's being built to be capable of 25kvAC; so it needs necessary clearances - and a bridge needs lifting to make room. Just like on every other bit of overhead electrification NR has done. No rocket scientist's input needed.
5: Sub-station/supply; just like the existing tram so no rocket science here either.
6: New platform to the side of the train through route - just like the existing tram so no rocket science here either.
7: New platforms adjacent to the train lines in Rotherham - I'm guessing these, too are just like the existing tram ones.......

Now what else is there - exactly - that hasn't already been done before, elsewhere, by someone, umpteen times before?

To put it another way

The T&W Metro was extended to Sunderland in April 2002, at a cost £100m. (about £150m inflation adjusted to today).
This required some track lowering and the reconstruction of four bridges. 13km of shared route.

Tram-train: Less than 6km, one bridge, £75m

Going through your list:

1/2: The tram-train wheels are not compatible with normal heavy rail track, because they have to have narrow flanges to fit into grooved rail on street. So they need raised check rails on all points and crossings to prevent derailment. Then all the heavy rail vehicles that use the line have to be assessed to ensure that the check rails will not foul any underfloor equipment. Including every type of freight wagon and locomotive....

3: The Supertram network operates on line of sight principles. Minimal tram-type signalling only at junctions, with no automatic braking if a driver fails to stop. A novel signalling solution was needed for the link to the block signalled, TPWS protected, heavy rail line. It has to ensure that an "ordinary" tram cannot stray on to the main line, and that a heavy freight train cannot be accidentally routed on to the tram line....

4/5: See snowball's post above - the dual AC/DC compatible OHLE was novel....

6/7: The low height of the tram-train platforms/extensions exposes the running gear of passing heavy rail trains, which is below the level of a normal platform. So a risk assessment was needed of the hazard to waiting passengers....

None of the above applied to the the T&W Sunderland extension. The T&W Metro uses standard heavy rail wheels, 1500V DC OHLE with no provision for conversion to AC, block signalling with Indusi train protection throughout and heavy rail platform heights.

Not rocket science, but it is very easy to underestimate the cost and time needed for a complex engineering project, if the requirements are not fully understood at the start and keep changing as the project evolves.

 

[TC60054]

Is Halfway fast becoming cursed ground?

Seems to be so...probably just because it's the furthest away from the depot on the network, so is more of a pain to get to to sort problems out

 

[D365]

Seems to be so...probably just because it's the furthest away from the depot on the network, so is more of a pain to get to to sort problems out

OT but I hope I'm not the only person who is reminded of a certain Bon Jovi song when I hear that destination...

 

[syorksdeano]

OT but I hope I'm not the only person who is reminded of a certain Bon Jovi song when I hear that destination...

No your not but if you get a tram to there you are Livin on a prayer if you actually reach your destination

Sent from my SM-T555 using Tapatalk

 

[Techniquest]

Whenever I hear of Halfway on Supertram I think of Highway to Hell

 

[DimTim]

Dangles have appeared from some of the horizontal supports near Rawmarsh Rd bridge Rotherham. It's progressing slowly!

 

[snalty]

Just seen a 399 out for driver training

 

[richard1976]

Just seen a 399 out for driver training

They have been doing driver training for a few months now

 

[martinr1]

Here's one on driver training:-

https://youtu.be/HaMAHEd9OL4

 

[ALEMASTER]

A special charity service using one of the new Citylink trams will operate in the style of a rail tour on Sunday 17th September starting at Meadowhall Interchange at 10:13 and doing a number of runs taking in the full length of the Yellow and Blue routes.

This is a great opportunity to try a ride on one of the new trams before they are introduced into regular public service.

The new Citylink trams are the ones that will be used on the tram-train service when that opens autumn next year as well as on services on the existing tram network.

There are no advance bookings for this special service and normal tickets will not be sold/accepted on it, instead just turn up and get on and you are asked to chuck a donation in the charity collection bucket on board, which is raising money for the Children's Hospital Charity in Sheffield.

You can download the timetable for this event at Supertram.com.

 

[Shaun_92]

Stagecoach have announced that on Sunday 17th September they will be running Citylink trams on both Blue & Yellow Routes. These will be run as Charity Trams in aid of The Children’s Hospital Charity.

 

[ALEMASTER]

the Tinsley Chord is constructed bar a couple of rails to go in place, the tramway signalling is in. Masts are up along the railway, the Parkgate terminus is constructed, work has begun on the platforms at Rotherham Central and the bridge by the station has been raised - things are happening!

Meanwhile the class 399 Citylink trams now have their certificate to carry passengers on the tramway so should be introduced into passenger service very soon, there will be a special charity service touring the Blue and Yellow routes on Sunday 17th September if any of you fancy a ride, it commences from Meadowhall Interchange at 10:13 - see www.supertram.com for the full timetable. No need to book or buy a ticket, just turn up, get on and chuck some money in the charity bucket.

 

[D365]

It's a pity that I'm only planning to be back in Sheffield the weekend after. When are they due to be introduced to regular service?

 

[ALEMASTER]

It's a pity that I'm only planning to be back in Sheffield the weekend after. When are they due to be introduced to regular service?

as far as I am aware there isn't yet a date for regular service but they should be out carrying passengers ad hoc from the week after the charity special but initially they will only be used as 'extras' be that relief service for events or additional trams sent out to step up services and maintain frequency when delays occur (usually due to traffic congestion at Hillsborough). At some point in the near future Citylinks will start getting booked for normal scheduled diagrams in order to get old trams off for a bit of TLC.

From what I can gather things are fairly fluid and the plan changes regularly though!

 

[snowball]

According to BBC Look North this lunchtime, the first tram-train starts service today, running on the existing Supertram network.

 

[Greybeard33]

RTM article "Tram-train: where did we go wrong?" by Andrew Braddock, chairman of the LRTA: http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Comment/tram-train-where-did-we-go-wrong.

...Given this wealth of information and experience, there was, in the LRTA’s opinion, no real need for a pilot scheme in the UK. It should have been perfectly possible to have moved directly to an initial installation on a route chosen to best demonstrate the ability to penetrate into and potentially through town/city centres to make the journey that much more attractive (thus generating substantial increases in patronage and revenue). It should also have enabled the removal of local services from parts of the heavy rail network to avoid costly infrastructure expansion to accommodate increasing longer-distance service levels.*
Based against these criteria, it seems unlikely that the Sheffield-Rotherham route would have been the first choice.*
The National Audit Office report from July identified a significant number of failings in the Sheffield-Rotherham project, most of which could have been avoided if the DfT had taken a more robust approach and required a thorough review of the experience in Karlsruhe by all the parties concerned, with the help of its colleagues in the German Federal Ministry of Transport. It seems, once again, that the ‘not invented here’ syndrome has come to the fore ...

He argues that there was no real need for a pilot scheme in the UK and that it has suffered from the "not invented here" syndrome.

 

[Kite159]

From the pictures of the interior of the new trams posted on Twitter, my first impressions are "those seats look rock hard"

 

[ALEMASTER]

According to BBC Look North this lunchtime, the first tram-train starts service today, running on the existing Supertram network.

Yesterday was the first of two events to launch the new Citylink trams in Sheffield (remember there are two projects - 4 vehicles for tram-train and 3 for Supertram additional vehicles) and raise money for the Childrens Hospital Charity at the same time. It involved naming Citylink tram 202 after Theo the Bear, the charity's mascot in front of invited guests including the rail minister, journalists and stakeholders who got a ride from depot to Meadowhall on it. The new tram then did an unadvertised public service from Meadowhall to Middlewood accepting charity donations instead of fares.

The second event is coming up on Sunday and is a public event, a new tram doing a tour of the Blue and Yellow routes on which tickets will not be sold/accepted, instead there will be charity buckets on board.

Then from next week the new trams will start appearing on normal services although initially just as extras here and there.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

From the pictures of the interior of the new trams posted on Twitter, my first impressions are "those seats look rock hard"

The passengers interviewed on BBC Look North all gave pretty glowing reviews, but they look pretty ordinary- nothing revolutionary as far as pax are concerned other than being clean.

I do wonder about the passenger comments that ended up on the cutting room floor though!

 

[TC60054]

399202 is on the 1313 Meadowhall to Middlewood today, and 1355 return. First day on regular timetabled service.

 

[507021]

I went to Sheffield for the day on Sunday to try out 399202, very impressed.

 

[DimTim]

Registration arms have now appeared on the metalwork at Rotherham Central

 

[TC60054]

Three Citylinks have now entered service to the best of my knowledge, these being 202, 206 and 207. 205 has also been out on driver training for most of the week.

202 entered service 14/09 and was used on the launch.
207 entered public service 20/09.
206 entered service as an evening peak additional 21/09.

 

[zephyr]

Does anyone know if the 399s are on set diagrams ?