Sheffield/Rotherham Tram-Train update

Discussion in 'Other Public Transport' started by bladesman123, 18 Jun 2014.

  1. NoOnesFool

    NoOnesFool Member

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    It would just be easier for them to install all-singing, all-dancing TVMs at the tram stops, adopt a buy before you board policy and increase RPOs doing blocks.
     
  2. Kite159

    Kite159 Veteran Member

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    Like Nottingham trams did a few years ago?

    Not good timing for the tram to get introduced to a trailer
     
  3. NoOnesFool

    NoOnesFool Member

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    Yes Nottingham trams have been buy before you board for a while now and incorporate tramway byelaws on platforms too. Given that the Rotherham area is quite bad for Fare Evasion, I've seen it happen quite recently, three youths sharing a toilet from Sheffield and quickly running off at Rotherham, I can see quite a few people trying to dodge the conductor on this route. They'd be much less likely to try it on if they were to get PF'd or prosecuted when caught (I know that Supertram already has a Penalty Fares system, but they could be applied to more chancers with a Buy Before You Board system).
     
  4. Kite159

    Kite159 Veteran Member

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    The Sheffield area is quite bad for fare evasion in my experience, you get RPIs at Meadowhall but unless they spot you coming up from the platforms they can't really stop you (as isn't the pathway a public right of way with some folk being able to walk across all 4 lines to join a tram, or carry on towards the shopping centre).

    I guess the Sheffield Trams penalty fare scheme is a bit like the West Midlands Metro penalty fare scheme, in that if someone tried to short fare to pay a lower fare getting caught (i.e. Sheffield Station to City Hall, but remaining on board to Hillsborough)?
     
  5. NoOnesFool

    NoOnesFool Member

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    Y
    Basically, as I understand it, the RPOs will issue a Penalty Fare if a passenger had say a Dayrider that was bus only and genuinely didn't realise (honest mistake) and anyone who is deemed to deliberately short fare or uses an altered ticket will be MG11d. Those who board and ask to buy a ticket would generally be sold one as if purchasing from the conductor (unless they ask for say student discount and their student card is out of date, which would result in the former action being taken). If it was buy before you board, then the RPOs could PF/report ANYONE without a ticket or travel card who failed to purchase or validate their ticket. Thus meaning evaders can't just buy a ticket when challenged anymore.
     
  6. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    It's a tough one on local trains - given that Guards have to open and close doors at every station - and given the short distances (e.g. Sheffield Midland to Meadowhall) - without wishing to get into a DOO argument, it's noticeable that Tram conductors are a lot better at getting down the vehicle to check all tickets/ passes (since they don't have to worry about returning to the rear doors to operate the buttons every few minutes).

    Plus, a lot of Guards (rightly or wrongly) focus on examining tickets on the longer gaps between stops, so on a Nottingham - Leeds service they'll try to come round between Meadowhall and Barnsley, which means they seldom leave the rear of the train between Sheffield and Meadowhall - some punters clearly get used to this. Much harder to dodge tickets on a tram - some might be in for a rude awakening!
     
  7. geoffk

    geoffk Established Member

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    Can someone explain why Nottingham NET changed from conductors to TVMs, while Midland Metro went the other way? Metrolink and Croydon always had TVMs but Croydon is I think a cashless system now. Sheffield and Blackpool have always had conductors (sorry not true for Sheffield).
     
    Last edited: 30 Oct 2018
  8. skifans

    skifans Member

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    Sheffield didn't use to have conductors back before Stagecoach. Back before Stagecoach used to have ticket machines and tickets also needed to be validated. (Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheffield_Supertram#Ticketing)

    Edit: Need to be careful what you say online - only had this echoed three times! Dosn't matter though, everyone makes mistakes.
     
  9. NoOnesFool

    NoOnesFool Member

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    Sorry to contradict, but I do believe that for a short while, when first launched, the Supertram was a TVM Buy Before You Board system, but this was quickly dropped, as back in the 90s, TVMs were hardly reliable. At some platforms, you can still see the plated up modules of where they used to operate.

    Edit, beaten to it!
     
  10. zebedee104

    zebedee104 Member

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    Sheffield didn’t always have conductors. It opened with a totally bizarre system of buying a ticket at one machine (or in shops), then having to validate it in another. This then changed to machine bought tickets being validated automatically when sold.

    Conductors only came in after the machines were the very regular targets of vandalism, especially on the Halfway branch.
     
  11. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Is this Northern you're talking about or Supertram? I thought the idea of a tram system with a conductor on board was that you don't need such nonsense - the conductor WILL get to you and therefore you do just pay when challenged, as you would be challenged every time (particularly as he doesn't have to prat about with the doors and thus spends all his time sorting out tickets)? And if you over-ride, the conductor would just come back and sell you another ticket for the extra bit?
     
  12. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Established Member

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    There are still RPOs on the Supertram, though they're dressed like every other conductor so it can be hard to tell until you're woken up and angrily asked for your ticket
     
  13. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Veteran Member

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    Except of course that the tram-trains won't be much use to people travelling to Meadowhall from Sheffield or Rotherham, whether they intend to pay or not.
     
  14. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    AFAIK the conductors began appearing before Stagecoach took over, but as it is over 20 years ago I may be misremembering. Certainly, the system of buy before you board was doomed to failure from the start due to the unnecessarily complicated procedure adopted.

    On the question of evasion, my observations are that this is not major problem. The vast majority of conductors are very on the ball and will approach everyone who boards, except on the rare occasions when extra heavy loadings mean they cannot get through quickly. Of course, a few conductors are less conscientious, but anyone from Rotherham used to not paying when going on the train and seeking to regularly evade fares on the tram/train will be in for a rude awakening.
     
  15. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Established Member

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    Part of the reason of moving away form the tickets was that the machines didn't give change, which annoyed shopkeepers as a lot of their footfall was people asking for change. Along with the poor reliability of the machines and want for staff presence on trams (I can imagine this being strong out towards Herdings), meant that the conductor was born....
     
  16. Skymonster

    Skymonster Member

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    Four of the 399s are configured for the tram-train service (something about wheel profiles being different as a result of wear from the heavy rail running, I believe) while the other three usually work regular tram routes - but can be used on the Rotherhams if need be. The tram-train service requires three units, so with 204 out of action for a while the other three will all need to be serviceable - or 205 / 206 / 207 will have to be temporarily drafted in on the new route. I suspect no one really knows how long it's going to take to fix 399204 yet.
     
  17. NoOnesFool

    NoOnesFool Member

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    I'm talking about Supertram. Supertrams do have Revenue Protection Officers (though they may be named slightly differently), they are quite easy to notice, as they will check tickets on the platforms and leave the tram at various points - whereas the conductor stays on board for obvious reasons. The conductors can't always get down the tram in time when busy, especially to passengers travelling from say Shalesmoor to Bamforth Street, and if there's no revenue block on the platform, then it's a lost fare.
     
  18. NoOnesFool

    NoOnesFool Member

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    They do stop at Meadowhall South, if I understand correctly, and quite a few shoppers who have gotten wise will get off there, to be closer to the stores at the eastern end of the centre, and The Source Academy seems to attract a reasonable flow too.
     
  19. M60lad

    M60lad Member

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    Another question I've got, considering this incident happened yesterday and its still ongoing this morning, depending on half-term (I know some places are on half-term this week and others next week) why couldn't Tram Replacement services buses/coaches have been sourced and organised in time for today?
     
  20. stuartl

    stuartl Member

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    Aren't many of the school services now provided by First using an amended normal route which reverts on school holidays? So do they actually have any spare buses, anyway I don't think it's half term in Sheffield this week as I have seen a teacher on his way to work as usual.
     
  21. geoffk

    geoffk Established Member

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    Are trams running to Meadowhall this morning? SYT website doesn't show any tram disruptions, just that tram-train is not currently running.
     
  22. stuartl

    stuartl Member

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    Not yet according to latest travel news on Radio Sheffield
     
  23. button_boxer

    button_boxer Established Member

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    I’m on a blue tram now, driver has just announced that all services have resumed to both Meadowhall and Rotherham.
     
  24. martinr1

    martinr1 Member

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    Yesterday's first day was pleasant until the unfortunate incident in the late afternoon. Here's a look at Parkgate:-

     
  25. DanTrain

    DanTrain Member

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    How does a revenue block work anyway, since you can't pay until you're on the tram, if the conductor doesn't reach you then you can't pay? Surely an RPI can only charge a standard ticket in this situation?
     
  26. martinr1

    martinr1 Member

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    A crowded Rotherham Central on opening day:-

     
  27. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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  28. martinr1

    martinr1 Member

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    A look at Cathedral on the first Tram train day:-

     
  29. Goldie

    Goldie Member

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    I had a day off today, and chance to have a ride on the tram train first thing this morning - starting with a walk down to Halfway with the mist still rising from the lake at Rother Valley:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    A quick change at the cathedral:

    [​IMG]

    For a lightly loaded run down the Don Valley:

    [​IMG]
     
  30. Goldie

    Goldie Member

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    Approaching the Tinsley Chord:

    [​IMG]

    I love the smell of public transport infrastructure spending in the morning:

    [​IMG]

    As Freel says, there was a short pause on the Chord while the tram transformed Autobot style into a train. And then a longer pause just shy of the Holmes Chord for a couple of Pacers to pass, one in either direction:

    [​IMG]
     

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