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Sheffield/Rotherham Tram-Train update

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Xenophon PCDGS

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Whilst I like the idea of tram-trains, some local authorities are grasping at the idea seeing them as a new "pacer" for local services.

Connotations to those monstrosities by using that infamous name is not the best Public Relations exercise. The less that particular word is used, conjuring up as it does all that is bad in British design coupled with their many operational problems, the better it will be...<(
 
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Robertj21a

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Dead right, although from what I hear the adjective "cheap" is not one to apply to tram-trains in any circumstances. This much was said at the light rail conference last week.

Even simple trams are more expensive per passenger than trains, so tram-train only makes sense if it is to exploit the extra features of the tram-train by going off the railway.

Surely, a statement like '......trams are more expensive per passenger than trains......' is significantly misleading ? Without any qualification as to the number of passengers and size of tram/train etc I don't see how that statement can be true.
 

edwin_m

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Surely, a statement like '......trams are more expensive per passenger than trains......' is significantly misleading ? Without any qualification as to the number of passengers and size of tram/train etc I don't see how that statement can be true.

An EMU typically costs about £1.1m per coach (20m or 23m long). A tram about 30m long (and a bit narrower, also with cabs each end) costs over twice that. For longer formations, the costs of both go up roughly in proportion to their length. A tram-train costs quite a bit more than a tram of the same size, due to needing special features and being produced in small batches rather than tens or hundreds as is typical for modern trams.

So the cost per square metre of passenger space will be significantly more for the tram. It's possible that the cost divided by the capacity would be similar, but only if the tram is laid out for mostly standing and the train for mostly seated, and that isn't really a fair comparison.
 

thenorthern

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From what I can see the Sheffield Supertram is possibly the worst light rail system to test out tram trains, first of all the trams are low floor which means that platform height is not the same as National Rail. Secondly I find the Sheffield Supertram is run more like a bus than light rail with request stops and very short branches such as Mallin Bridge. Both of these I feel make the Sheffield Supertram unsuitable for tram trains and the Manchester Metrolink would have been a better choice.

Also this may seem a dumb question but when riding the supertram I always feel that the interiors feel like something out of the Soviet Union as they are really bleak and the jingle before the announcements seems dated. Does anyone else thing the insides are bleak?
 

61653 HTAFC

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From what I can see the Sheffield Supertram is possibly the worst light rail system to test out tram trains, first of all the trams are low floor which means that platform height is not the same as National Rail. Secondly I find the Sheffield Supertram is run more like a bus than light rail with request stops and very short branches such as Mallin Bridge. Both of these I feel make the Sheffield Supertram unsuitable for tram trains and the Manchester Metrolink would have been a better choice.

Also this may seem a dumb question but when riding the supertram I always feel that the interiors feel like something out of the Soviet Union as they are really bleak and the jingle before the announcements seems dated. Does anyone else thing the insides are bleak?

Sheffield was chosen for the trial specifically because of the low floor, in order to prove the practicality of the concept. Manchester would have been easier, but high-floor trams are the exception rather than the rule. I believe that Tram-Train vehicles in use in Europe are low-floor (though admittedly with the caveat that trains are also low-floor in many places in Europe).

As for Supertram being dated, I'd say they're positively futuristic compared to the city they operate in! ;)
 

507021

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From what I can see the Sheffield Supertram is possibly the worst light rail system to test out tram trains, first of all the trams are low floor which means that platform height is not the same as National Rail. Secondly I find the Sheffield Supertram is run more like a bus than light rail with request stops and very short branches such as Mallin Bridge. Both of these I feel make the Sheffield Supertram unsuitable for tram trains and the Manchester Metrolink would have been a better choice.

Also this may seem a dumb question but when riding the supertram I always feel that the interiors feel like something out of the Soviet Union as they are really bleak and the jingle before the announcements seems dated. Does anyone else thing the insides are bleak?

I really like the Supertram units to be honest. I think that the interiors are bright and spacious - they're comfortable to ride on too with plenty of legroom for somebody of average height such as myself

With regards to the short branches (such as the Malin Bridge branch) there were plans - around ten years ago I think it was - to expand the network quite vastly with a line to Dore, Fulwood, Hellaby and Rotherham respectively. However the funding that was required wasn't obtained and they didn't go ahead. There still is a lot of potential to expand the Supertram network and there are still proposals to do so

Of course now that the Rotherham branch is going ahead I hope in the future that the proposed extension to Dore goes ahead as well as I think a light rail link to that part of the city would be very well utilised. It would also create a very useful link from that part of the city to High Speed 2 at Meadowhall. I think that a link to Ranmoor would be well utilised as well

To basically repeat what HTAFC has said - it simply wouldn't work to operate the low floor Class 399 units on a network like the Manchester Metrolink. The key factor is that all of the station platforms are higher than those on the Supertram network. Considering the pilot scheme that the 399s will be operating on I think that Sheffield was an excellent choice to pilot tram train operation in the United Kingdom. I am very much looking forward to seeing the 399s in operation on the Rotherham link in 2017 - and of course before then as well when they enter service to boost capacity on the Supertram network
 

Haydn1971

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From what I can see the Sheffield Supertram is possibly the worst light rail system to test out tram trains, first of all the trams are low floor which means that platform height is not the same as National Rail.

Not at all, as I said above, tram-trains are ideal for extending existing tram networks onto heavy rail infrastructure - Manchester is unusual in its use of high floors as a tramway, something that fits badly with city centre running, but clearly works well for its original application using previously heavy rail platforms. Tram-trains are not replacements for heavy rail, contra to what many local authorities are thinking in the Yorkshire region - I see tram-train being ideal for extending supertram to Dore via a new four track section between Sheffield and Dore, I also see it being ideal for taking trams to the northwest of Sheffield - Stocksbridge potentially.

Secondly I find the Sheffield Supertram is run more like a bus than light rail with request stops and very short branches such as Mallin Bridge. Both of these I feel make the Sheffield Supertram unsuitable for tram trains and the Manchester Metrolink would have been a better choice.

It has a bus feel about it because of the constant presence of the conductor - the use of request stop is a tad misleading, if there is someone on the platform the tram stops, there are several minor stops where the tram will pass through if there is no one at the platform and no one has requested internally. To be fair, at night when your steamed up on a few beers, it's great that the tram runs through quickly, in the peak, it generally stops at all platforms. The short branches were future proofing, the original aspiration being to continue onwards to Stannington and to the (then) planned hospital site at Norton Aerodrome - Southern General was planned in the 70's when the network was first developed, it was still an adaptation in 1986 when the alignment was laid before parliament - a further change made late on was to remove the small diversion via Wulfric Road and Fairleigh which was a good idea in 1986, but by the early 90's was a bad idea due to the vast clearance of homes near Manor Top.

Also this may seem a dumb question but when riding the supertram I always feel that the interiors feel like something out of the Soviet Union as they are really bleak and the jingle before the announcements seems dated. Does anyone else thing the insides are bleak?


Disagree completely - the Siemens units still look contemporary in my opinion, the refresh a few years back helped freshen the interiors up too - the seats are unusual in terms of being benches rather than individual seats though - that may have influenced your view.
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Trafford Eye

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I have it from a reasonably placed source that the trial my never go ahead. It is that behind time scales and NR are dragging their feet to such a degree that there is some consideration to scrapping the project! The vehicles would just be signed over to Supertram as a sop!

My sourse tells me cold reality has set in as there are so few applicable systems which could actually benefit. That and TfGM has very much set it stall that should transport powers be completely devolved to them, they would look very closely at buying their own fleet of tram trains anyway regardless of the trial.

Greetings by the way!
 

Haydn1971

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That wouldn't surprise me, but what a waste of money - teams that also run on 25k, design work, consultation... Rotherham MBC would be spitting fire too, they have been trying to get a tram connection for 20 years !
 

507021

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I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the trial doesn't go ahead either unfortunately. It was due to be operational this year and is now not expected until 2017 - that's a big delay by any standards. Even so after all this time and investment I think it would be a poor decision to cancel the pilot scheme before it's even given the chance to see if it would work or not. At least one positive that would come out of cancelling the trial for the existing Supertram network would be that the Class 399 units would still go to Supertram to provide some much needed extra capacity instead

If the scheme is indeed cancelled then I hope it doesn't deter SYPTE from looking at other options to expanding the network to Dore or potentially Ranmoor
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the trial doesn't go ahead either unfortunately. It was due to be operational this year and is now not expected until 2017 - that's a big delay by any standards.

Would TfGM be allowed to set the wheels in motion for its high-door version of the tram-train if there are no onwards movements on the Shefield-Rotherham trials?
 

507021

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Would TfGM be allowed to set the wheels in motion for its high-door version of the tram-train if there are no onwards movements on the Shefield-Rotherham trials?

I'm sure I've read somewhere (can't remember where unfortunately) that a number of proposals have already been put forward for the Manchester Metrolink to trial tram-trains. The two that I can remember are the Glossop Line and between Manchester and Hazel Grove on the Manchester to Sheffield line

Obviously if the Sheffield to Rotherham pilot gets cancelled then Supertram would still be the first to operate tram-trains in the United Kingdom - albeit on its existing light rail network. Potentially the Manchester Metrolink could be the first operator to trial tram-trains on heavy rail although we'll have to wait and see what happens first. Whilst I wouldn't be surprised if the Sheffield to Rotherham pilot does get cancelled I'm still hoping that it does go ahead
 

edwin_m

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I'm sure I've read somewhere (can't remember where unfortunately) that a number of proposals have already been put forward for the Manchester Metrolink to trial tram-trains. The two that I can remember are the Glossop Line and between Manchester and Hazel Grove on the Manchester to Sheffield line

Obviously if the Sheffield to Rotherham pilot gets cancelled then Supertram would still be the first to operate tram-trains in the United Kingdom - albeit on its existing light rail network. Potentially the Manchester Metrolink could be the first operator to trial tram-trains on heavy rail although we'll have to wait and see what happens first. Whilst I wouldn't be surprised if the Sheffield to Rotherham pilot does get cancelled I'm still hoping that it does go ahead

Google for "TfGM tram-train strategy". Last I heard they were still waiting for results from Rotherham before deciding whether to go ahead. Top of the list is the Marple line, as it has been since 2004, but also ideas of Hazel Grove (via the old Midland line) and converting the section north of Altrincham to avoid the single line.
 

dosxuk

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very short branches such as Mallin Bridge

To be fair, the Malin Bridge "branch" is just used as an extra long bay platform. You can walk to the previous stop (on the "main line") quicker than the tram takes to get there.
 

edwin_m

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Wouldn't that be a train-tram ;)

Titter ye not. The term has been used, for something that is basically a train but able to run on tram lines, as seen in a German city whose name temporarily escapes me (brain cell overheating).
 

DimTim

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On a journey into Sheffield last week I noticed they appear to be clearing the hedge just north of Tinsley South tram stop - is this the start of the work on the connection to rail line?
 

ALEMASTER

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On a journey into Sheffield last week I noticed they appear to be clearing the hedge just north of Tinsley South tram stop - is this the start of the work on the connection to rail line?

How far along? - there is also a new road being built as part of the Bus Rapid Transit corridor project which goes across the new level crossing.

Work is due to commence on the junction on the tramway for the new tramtrain chord next Easter so I imagine there has been some project engineers on site looking at it already.
 

DimTim

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Was very shortly after we crossed the river - what appeared to be part of a privet hedge stripped out - before you reach the work on the new road. The metal fence remained in situ.
 

MarkyT

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Titter ye not. The term has been used, for something that is basically a train but able to run on tram lines, as seen in a German city whose name temporarily escapes me (brain cell overheating).

Vogtlandbahn, Zwickau:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogtlandbahn

Mixed gauge double track along city streets to a small city centre terminus for local 'heavy rail' services operated by lightweight rolling stock that might be described as 'train-trams'.

Some local services over the surrounding mainline network are operated by these lightweight standard gauge diesel railcars, in many places sharing tracks with other heavy rail traffic including freight. These are extended from the city's Hauptbahnhof along a street right of way to the heart of the old city shared with an electrified metre-gauge city tramway.
 

eastwestdivide

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Was very shortly after we crossed the river - what appeared to be part of a privet hedge stripped out - before you reach the work on the new road. The metal fence remained in situ.

Did you mean at the nearest end of the tram in this photo?
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Taken today from the lower deck of the M1 viaduct, looking towards Tinsley/Meadowhall South tram stop.
That would be approximately the site of the junction onto the new chord.

Over on the NR line beside the tram stop, there was also a bit of vegetation clearance:
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And a couple of mini-diggers (right) and a pile of plastic tubing/conduit (left):
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I've recently noticed that same plastic tubing in other places around the Rotherham (Central) area. Could it be to do with cable routing for resignalling between Woodburn and Rotherham?
 

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DimTim

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In the first photo the hedge between the fences was being removed but as you see it was to create 'a gap' rather than remove the whole hedgerow. It appears a facing crossover could be installed after Tinsley South then the chord branch off through the gap once fencing removed.
 

WestRiding

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T3 Possessions now taking place every morning for the next year, on the Tinsley lines from Rotherham Central Jn towards Meadowhall South under Woodburn Signal Box control. Anyone interested may be able to see some works starting.
 

eastwestdivide

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Activity on the ground - in the last few weeks, some big round steel tubes marked "Pipe & Piling Supplies Ltd" have appeared at intervals beside the line just to the N of Rotherham Central station, with fittings at one end. Also some new troughing I think:
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But none to the south of the station that I could see today, at least as far as where the "Old Road" crosses the GC line.

There's also a storage site N of the Greasbrough Road bridge with lots of corrugated plastic tubing (for cable runs?) and concrete cable troughing, plus a road-railer and access point.
 

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edwin_m

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As I just posted in another place, these look to me like piles for OLE supports and the writing on the wooden pegs looks like what will go on a plate on the support once it is installed.
 

eastwestdivide

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Sunday update - no more piles visible from public locations all the way from the Tinsley area to Rotherham.

edwin_m: I like "another place" - which forum is the Commons and which one the Lords? No, don't answer that.
 

snowball

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BBC Look North (Yorkshire lunchtime edition) today had an item from Valencia about the Sheffield tram-train vehicles. No doubt it (or a longer version) will be on the 18:30 edition.
 
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