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Sheffield station congestion

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WestRiding

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Ok bobby. :rolleyes:
Its ok mate. Its not unusual for drivers to blame the big red signal, in lieu of the correct signal sequence and local knowledge. Drivers will be getting bubble wrapped before start of duty at this rate :lol: (joking)
 
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Greybeard33

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If a train is leaving 7, then a train cannot arrive on 6. If a train is arriving on 7, then you cannot run into 6 or 8 from the North, all due to overlaps. Once a train has arrived on 6 from the North, there is a 2 min time out before trains can leave 7, because the overlap needs to die, by which time, the train in 6 is probably TRSing.
Could mid platform signals on 6 and 8 help with the overlap issues, as at Manchester Oxford Road? E.g. while a train was departing south from 6, 7 or 8, a train from the north could be cleared up to the mid platform signal on 6 or 8. By the time the arriving train entered the platform, the departing one should have cleared the overlap, enabling the mid platform signal to change to single yellow.
 

WestRiding

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Could mid platform signals on 6 and 8 help with the overlap issues, as at Manchester Oxford Road? E.g. while a train was departing south from 6, 7 or 8, a train from the north could be cleared up to the mid platform signal on 6 or 8. By the time the arriving train entered the platform, the departing one should have cleared the overlap, enabling the mid platform signal to change to single yellow.
That could be a good idea if executed properly.
 

sheff1

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Am I right in thinking that what Sheffield needs is something a-la Derby? Major remodel and re-signalling for modern traffic flows.

Unfortunately, unlike at Derby, as far as I can tell there is no room at Sheffield for a new island platform.
 

Class 170101

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Could mid platform signals on 6 and 8 help with the overlap issues, as at Manchester Oxford Road? E.g. while a train was departing south from 6, 7 or 8, a train from the north could be cleared up to the mid platform signal on 6 or 8. By the time the arriving train entered the platform, the departing one should have cleared the overlap, enabling the mid platform signal to change to single yellow.

I think that would classed as a SPAD risk due to the possibility of read through.

Also what would the overlap distance be? I think its been said on this board that New Street is 10mph with no overlaps and has derogations as it doesn't meet modern safety standards and indeed the resignalling of New Street Station is being done last for this reason. (This station has mid platform signals).
 

edwin_m

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I think that would classed as a SPAD risk due to the possibility of read through.

Also what would the overlap distance be? I think its been said on this board that New Street is 10mph with no overlaps and has derogations as it doesn't meet modern safety standards and indeed the resignalling of New Street Station is being done last for this reason. (This station has mid platform signals).
Just skimmed the article in Modern Railways on the re-signaling of New Street, where they now reckon significant overlap lengthening isn't necessary subject to various other tweaks, which result in shortening the effective length of some platforms slightly but are still considered workable (apparently only the long ECS formations from Central Rivers are affected).
 

Greybeard33

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I think that would classed as a SPAD risk due to the possibility of read through.

Also what would the overlap distance be? I think its been said on this board that New Street is 10mph with no overlaps and has derogations as it doesn't meet modern safety standards and indeed the resignalling of New Street Station is being done last for this reason. (This station has mid platform signals).
As I understand it the 10mph restriction at New Street is to enable double occupancy of platforms, with each platform split into A and B portions.

At Oxford Road platforms are not normally double occupied and the eastbound speed restriction is 20mph. The "mid platform" signals are not in the middle of the platform; they are set back just far enough (about 70m from the eastern end of the platform) that their overlaps do not foul the junction at the eastern throat. Read through is not an issue because, on approach, the end platform starter signal never shows a less restrictive aspect than the mid platform signal.

It is the Oxford Road type of arrangement I was suggesting for Sheffield southbound.
 

WestRiding

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Unfortunately, unlike at Derby, as far as I can tell there is no room at Sheffield for a new island platform.
To get a new meaningful platform would mean removing either the UP Station Sidings 1&2 or the Down Station Siding. All very valuable and are full with units most nights. We also use the sidings regularly for freight traffic as a through route through the congested station. It's basically, Platforms vs Needed Sidings. The only way to utilise the space for more platforms would be to move northerns storage depot to somewhere like Tinsley and the trains come in empty stock every morning and form service on arrival.
 

edwin_m

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As I understand it the 10mph restriction at New Street is to enable double occupancy of platforms, with each platform split into A and B portions.

At Oxford Road platforms are not normally double occupied and the eastbound speed restriction is 20mph. The "mid platform" signals are not in the middle of the platform; they are set back just far enough (about 70m from the eastern end of the platform) that their overlaps do not foul the junction at the eastern throat. Read through is not an issue because, on approach, the end platform starter signal never shows a less restrictive aspect than the mid platform signal.

It is the Oxford Road type of arrangement I was suggesting for Sheffield southbound.
According to the article I mentioned above, the 10mph speed at New Street is also related to the lack of overlaps and absence of AWS, but is proposed to increase for 15mph for trains departing the station (not arriving). The mid-platform signals at New Street are for the purposes of allowing two trains in the same platform, although on occasions two trains can be on the same side of those signals. None of these applies at Oxford Road. Another precedent, probably rather unfortunate, is set by the mid-platform signals at Bristol TM where 10mph restrictions have also been imposed when entering the platforms.
 

Roast Veg

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Leicester also suffers from not having any overlaps and no mid platform signals.
 

sheff1

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The only way to utilise the space for more platforms would be to move northerns storage depot to somewhere like Tinsley and the trains come in empty stock every morning and form service on arrival.

That sounds an interesting idea - not something I recall seeing floated before.
 

lammergeier

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Its not a problem, means a flexible station layout, as two trains can depart south at the same time. A yellow is a correct aspect and a driver, along with their route knowledge should be ok. S84 is not a regualr spad signal, and has only been SPAD twice since 2006.

There was one there about 2 weeks ago.
 

talltim

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To get a new meaningful platform would mean removing either the UP Station Sidings 1&2 or the Down Station Siding. All very valuable and are full with units most nights. We also use the sidings regularly for freight traffic as a through route through the congested station. It's basically, Platforms vs Needed Sidings. The only way to utilise the space for more platforms would be to move northerns storage depot to somewhere like Tinsley and the trains come in empty stock every morning and form service on arrival.
Surely a new platform road could still be used for stabling at night and as a through road for freight?
 

D365

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How would you squeeze in a new island platform without moving all of the existing islands, or making them narrower?
 

londonmidland

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Certainly a challenging situation at Sheffield this afternoon.

Track circuit failure at the north end of the station which meant trains departing Sheffield, heading north, had to run ‘wrong line’

Most services are running around 15-30 minutes late.
 

IanXC

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As far as regulation decisions are concerned, I came across this FOI request (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/lne_regulating_statement#incoming-1437313) which has the following to say regarding Sheffield:

SHEFFIELD STATION
• Northern services towards Manchester must be regulated at Sheffield station or Heeley Loop with the objective of being no more than 8 minutes late at Dore Station Junction.
• Late running xx:24 XC services. EMT 1Cxx services must be regulated to follow the XC xx:24 service from Sheffield (booked order), providing the xx:24 service has arrived by xx:29.
• Late running xx:56 XC services. EMT 1Cxx services must be regulated to follow the XC xx:56 service from Sheffield (booked order), providing the 1Vxx service has arrived by xx:57.
 
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