Sheffield to London: MML vs ECML

[pedr]

I don’t travel to London often but had cause to go there and back (from Sheffield) on Wednesday and also travel down this evening. There was some disruption (I haven’t looked to find out the cause) so instead of East Midlands Trains I was advised to go via Doncaster tonight, which probably made my first class advance EMT only ticket very good value! (Though I only got a soft drink and some crisps out of it as I wasn’t planning on evening food and there wasn’t hot food available for some reason).

The hassle of changing has meant I haven’t really considered LNER for London journeys in the past but it did seem to be a nicer train with better facilities (although I am comparing traveling standard class for work with first class this evening). Is Sheffield particularly unlucky in having EMT and XC for its long distance services? Or am I being unfair?

 

[cuccir]

I've used EMT from London to Derby on a handful of occaisons over the past few years and as a north-east resident used to the ECML, the relative lack of comfort and quality of the trains compared to the East Coast operators has struck me. Particularly the 222s seem quite a downgrade on 225s.

One advantage though must be that the London services are self-contained. In other words, I'd guess that disruption on the MML is less frequent than on the ECML simply because it's shorter: passengers for London from Sheffield will never have their train cancelled because of high winds near Berwick. Also, southbound at least passengers will have their choice of seats so that's a plus. And being on XC means that Sheffield has these benefits but that the services to the north are still there when needed.

 

[tom73]

It may sound harsh but EMT's 222 seems crap compared to what LNER offers. If making your journey I would always go via Doncaster but would try for an LNER service that had originated from Leeds so there was a much greater chance of a full catering service. Your LNER service could have come all the way from Edinburgh with the hot food running out well before Doncaster. No idea what time you travelled but weekday evening services from Leeds (19:16 or 19:45) always have plenty of seats to the point where First Class would seem a waste of money unless the hot meal is a priority for you.

 

[LowLevel]

You're comparing apples and pears really. The MML is a relatively short distance service on which all but a few exceptional services run for the leisure market (London to York/Scarborough) or for operational reasons (London to Leeds) are much shorter distance and duration than the ECML.

You're never going to get the same standard of service on a route with journey times generally between an hour and 2 hours versus one with all trains bar the Newark Northgate feeder service having 2 hour minimum journey times right up to over 8 hours for the longest, with many folks making journeys that are between 2 and 8 hours in the process.

 

[robbeech]

I agree with LowLevel in that they’re very different products.

With open tickets, or during disruption where you are permitted either directly or through a concept of ‘any reasonable route’ it’s worth remembering that there’s a 2 hourly service that calls at Retford so you can travel via Worksop.
You can also travel XC to Tamworth and LNWR to Euston though this takes significantly longer.

 

[yorksrob]

Looking at next years AP's, EMT seem to have jacked up their prices by quite a bit, making their first class advances to wakefield equivalent in price to LNER, whilst taking around a third longer.

Whilst for the moment, they do have superior rolling stock in terms of comfort, it will be difficult to justify shelling out forty quid for a ticket.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It all has to unfold yet, but the direction of travel is for very similar trains to be operating on the MML and the ECML before long.
Chances are that something very similar to the Hitachi class 80x which LNER get next year will find their way on to the MML in the next franchise, running as bi-modes.
The MML and ECML are also under the same Network Rail Route now (LNE & EM).
And then there is the prospect of all the fast services from London to Sheffield, Leeds and further north being operated via HS2 from Euston by 2033.
There's actually a long history as to why Sheffield (and Nottingham) don't have fast services to King's Cross, which are easily possible.
Basically it would kill the MML if this traffic was moved away from St Pancras, and it would also consume ECML paths that are better used for north-east/Scotland services.

 

[johnr57]

There's actually a long history as to why Sheffield (and Nottingham) don't have fast services to King's Cross, which are easily possible

now that sounds interesting - can you explain please

 

[cactustwirly]

Looking at next years AP's, EMT seem to have jacked up their prices by quite a bit, making their first class advances to wakefield equivalent in price to LNER, whilst taking around a third longer.

Whilst for the moment, they do have superior rolling stock in terms of comfort, it will be difficult to justify shelling out forty quid for a ticket.

They've jacked up their prices since the May TT change, before that I was getting £11 & £13 advances, now they're all £17 & £19!

 

[yorksrob]

They've jacked up their prices since the May TT change, before that I was getting £11 & £13 advances, now they're all £17 & £19!

Shame really. They've always been the reasonably priced option.

It seems to be a TOC "race to the bottom" in terms of value for money.

 

[unlevel42]

The factors which most influence me in making my travel plans between Sheffield and London are:
Waiting at Doncaster for a connection.
Punctuality of services between Sheffield and Doncaster.
Transfer between platforms at Doncaster.
Poor PIDs at Doncaster.
St Pancras to Euston Road via the Clock is longer but far easier with luggage.
Usually trains at platform at Sheffield.
Prefer Betjeman Arms to the Parcel Yard.

All in all less stressful.

Good connections at Retford are rare and its a long, bleak way from the Low level platform on the way home.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

now that sounds interesting - can you explain please

The MS&L (later GC) ran services from Sheffield via Retford and the GN to King's Cross before their London extension opened to Marylebone in 1899.
The GN ran from Nottingham via Grantham.

Under early BR, Sheffield-Retford-King's Cross was how the Master Cutler operated (it was originally an LNER service).
After Beeching, all London trains ran from Sheffield Midland via the MML including the Cutler, but connections via the ECML remained.
BR gave serious consideration to serving Sheffield and Nottingham from King's Cross, but decided in the end to keep them on the MML.
Otherwise the MML would have been reduced to principally a St Pancras-Leicester-Derby service.
But it meant that both places got a slower intercity service than they could have had via the ECML.
Meanwhile, all the spare capacity on the ECML has been taken up with longer-distance services.
The difference was most marked after the ECML was upgraded to 125mph while the Midland remained at 100/110mph and with more stops.
More recently, journey times have evened out somewhat with 125mph running on the MML.


​

 

[Senex]

The MS&L (later GC) ran services from Sheffield via Retford and the GN to King's Cross before their London extension opened to Marylebone in 1899.
The GN ran from Nottingham via Grantham.

Under early BR, Sheffield-Retford-King's Cross was how the Master Cutler operated (it was originally an LNER service).
After Beeching, all London trains ran from Sheffield Midland via the MML including the Cutler, but connections via the ECML remained.
BR gave serious consideration to serving Sheffield and Nottingham from King's Cross, but decided in the end to keep them on the MML.
Otherwise the MML would have been reduced to principally a St Pancras-Leicester-Derby service.
But it meant that both places got a slower intercity service than they could have had via the ECML.
Meanwhile, all the spare capacity on the ECML has been taken up with longer-distance services.
The difference was most marked after the ECML was upgraded to 125mph while the Midland remained at 100/110mph and with more stops.
More recently, journey times have evened out somewhat with 125mph running on the MML.​

London-Sheffield would certainly be a bit faster via the GN. The net timings appear to be 83/84 minutes to Doncaster and 18½ minutes Doncaster to Sheffield, so even allowing for a crawl up to and round the curve from Bridge Jn and some recovery time a non-stop timing that way of no more than 110 minutes looks possible. It should of course be significantly faster to run via Retford, but a lot more work would be needed to bring the line on to Sheffield up to higher-speed standards. But I wonder if King's Cross to Nottingham would be significantly quicker than from St Pancras unless a very great deal of money were spent on the Grantham to Nottingham line. And all that assumes non-stop running. I wonder how the minimum sensible Midland stops (probably Leicester to Nottingham and Leicester, Derby, and Chesterfield to Sheffield) would stack up against ECML options, with only Peterborough seeming the really major place.

 

[cactustwirly]

Having had a look at journey times, going via Doncaster takes an extra 10 minutes longer.
For example the 1000 EMT service arrives into St Pancras at 1209; if you took the 1010 TPE service to Doncaster you arrive at 1034, the next train to London is at 1047, which arrives at 1229.
So by the time you're on the LNER service from Doncaster the EMT service is almost at Loughborough!

tbh the 222s are a lot more comfortable than 800s, and the MML is much more interesting than the ECML!

 

[ivanhoe]

Two trains an hour to St. Pancras , good X Country Connections. I'd say the MML serves Sheffield well. Why anybody would want to go via ECML, unless of course there are hold ups on MML, I can't understand.The only downside for Sheffield are the slow journey times to Manchester and Leeds. Sheffield is quite well connected.

 

[vlad]

There was disruption on the MML yesterday (Friday) due to signalling problems in the Luton/St Albans area. According to the EMT staff member in Sheffield there are always problems in the Luton area....

I was on the 1359 from Sheffield (but only travelled as far as Derby). It left a few minutes late as the unit had arrived late. Although it was announced at Sheffield and via the on-train displays as going to London it was announced that there was a probability they'd have to stop the train at Bedford or Luton and put everyone onto a coach. I see from RTT that the train did make it to London after all but was pretty much the only one at that time of day.

 

[cactustwirly]

There was disruption on the MML yesterday (Friday) due to signalling problems in the Luton/St Albans area. According to the EMT staff member in Sheffield there are always problems in the Luton area....

I was on the 1359 from Sheffield (but only travelled as far as Derby). It left a few minutes late as the unit had arrived late. Although it was announced at Sheffield and via the on-train displays as going to London it was announced that there was a probability they'd have to stop the train at Bedford or Luton and put everyone onto a coach. I see from RTT that the train did make it to London after all but was pretty much the only one at that time of day.

I travel on the MML often, and I've never had any problems, it's a lot more reliable than the GWML!

 

[Iskra]

EMT HST's are decent if you can get one of those. 222's may be getting shabby, but they are at least very reliable. The MML as a whole is a lot more reliable than the ECML, where the rolling stock is also increasingly unreliable. The MML is the Cinderella of London-based intercity operations, but it has positives- reliable, cheap and the service is slowly improving.

At least if you don't like the MML you are in the fortunate position of having a degree of choice by going to Doncaster. If you want to appreciate the quality of job EMT do, try taking GC or HT from Doncaster instead and you might appreciate EMT a bit more.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There was disruption on the MML yesterday (Friday) due to signalling problems in the Luton/St Albans area. According to the EMT staff member in Sheffield there are always problems in the Luton area....

I was on the 1359 from Sheffield (but only travelled as far as Derby). It left a few minutes late as the unit had arrived late. Although it was announced at Sheffield and via the on-train displays as going to London it was announced that there was a probability they'd have to stop the train at Bedford or Luton and put everyone onto a coach. I see from RTT that the train did make it to London after all but was pretty much the only one at that time of day.

Yesterday was a total and utter disaster on the MML and for TLK , signal cable faults at Sandridge - following it on Opentime trains showed a completely empty St Pancras at several times.........

 

[johntea]

To be fair the ECML had a similar total and utter disaster earlier in the week!

Maybe I'm just a typical Northerner but as long as the train is moving it really doesn't make too much of a difference to me between GC/LNER/EMT - I've been on far longer journeys via Northern Rail so a couple of hours is nothing in the grand scheme of things, especially since you're basically getting shoved onto the Underground as soon as you get there anyway most of the time!

 

[Tracked]

There was disruption on the MML yesterday (Friday) due to signalling problems in the Luton/St Albans area. According to the EMT staff member in Sheffield there are always problems in the Luton area....

I was on the 1359 from Sheffield (but only travelled as far as Derby). It left a few minutes late as the unit had arrived late. Although it was announced at Sheffield and via the on-train displays as going to London it was announced that there was a probability they'd have to stop the train at Bedford or Luton and put everyone onto a coach. I see from RTT that the train did make it to London after all but was pretty much the only one at that time of day.

I travel between Doncaster and Chesterfield to work, yes Friday was a bit of a mess if you wanted to go via the MML to London Village, but the ECML definitely has problems more often than the MML does.

222's are ok, but a lot of them need a bit of a refresh inside, I don't like the seats on the EMT HST's, the backs are a bit low (the XC HST's have better seats).

 

[extendedpaul]

On occasion I've found that specifying via Doncaster for a journey between Sheffield and London has given me a lower advance fare. Usually for departures from Sheffield between 17.00 and 18.00 weekdays.
The saving was not massive but worthwhile with only a slightly longer journey time.

 

[sheff1]

You're never going to get the same standard of service on a route with journey times generally between an hour and 2 hours ...

I would change that to never again. I certainly remember when the all day restaurant car services on the MML were the equal of those on the ECML.

 

[Qwerty133]

It all has to unfold yet, but the direction of travel is for very similar trains to be operating on the MML and the ECML before long.
Chances are that something very similar to the Hitachi class 80x which LNER get next year will find their way on to the MML in the next franchise, running as bi-modes.
The MML and ECML are also under the same Network Rail Route now (LNE & EM).
And then there is the prospect of all the fast services from London to Sheffield, Leeds and further north being operated via HS2 from Euston by 2033.
There's actually a long history as to why Sheffield (and Nottingham) don't have fast services to King's Cross, which are easily possible.
Basically it would kill the MML if this traffic was moved away from St Pancras, and it would also consume ECML paths that are better used for north-east/Scotland services.

My own view on the matter is that it is hard to see the service on the Midland Mainline being reduced substantially simply due to the need for Leicester to need fast services to both London and Sheffield and the layout of Leicester meaning through services are probably advantageous to separating the services. Leicester will continue to need at least 3 services per hour based on current usage and its hard to see how that won't be 4 by 2033. I also think Leicester will continue to need half hourly services to Derby and Sheffield although I suspect the failing East Midlands Parkway will be a casualty of HS2 (personally I don't think they should wait that long).

 

[Oliver]

Back in the early 60's the West Riding service from Kings Cross to Leeds carried a portion for Sheffield which detached at Retford. The Deltic-hauled Hitchin to Retford leg was the fastest start to stop in the country at 71.9mph. As a teenager in possession of free passes I did a day trip: Kings Cross - Retford - Sheffield - (Woodhead EM2 hauled) - Manchester - St Pancras (Peak hauled). Cutting edge for those days.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Two trains an hour to St. Pancras , good X Country Connections. I'd say the MML serves Sheffield well. Why anybody would want to go via ECML, unless of course there are hold ups on MML, I can't understand.The only downside for Sheffield are the slow journey times to Manchester and Leeds. Sheffield is quite well connected.

It is a real shame Midland Mainline didn’t get the acceptance on 9 car 222s on an hourly St Pancras - Leeds.

Yes, it would have taken longer but at the time they had an excellent product and the 222s aren’t at all bad.

The choice would also likely have allowed a reasonable level of competition and fare differences. I would have had no issues using them.

 

[edwin_m]

My own view on the matter is that it is hard to see the service on the Midland Mainline being reduced substantially simply due to the need for Leicester to need fast services to both London and Sheffield and the layout of Leicester meaning through services are probably advantageous to separating the services. Leicester will continue to need at least 3 services per hour based on current usage and its hard to see how that won't be 4 by 2033. I also think Leicester will continue to need half hourly services to Derby and Sheffield although I suspect the failing East Midlands Parkway will be a casualty of HS2 (personally I don't think they should wait that long).

Nail on head.

Running London to Nottingham or Sheffield via ECML would mean still running MML trains to link those stations with Leicester. It would provide a link to Peterborough instead, but the Norwich train is adequate for the fairly small numbers of passengers between those stations (and if there were more then nobody would be talking about splitting that service at Nottingham).

In the long term the plan is for HS2 to provide the fast London-Sheffield journey so I would expect the MML Sheffield service to be an extension of a semi-fast to link intermediate stations, and for the fasts to focus on Leicester and hopefully still continue to Derby and Nottingham where (as I've posted many times before) HS2 doesn't provide an adequate service to the city centres.

I'd guess East Midlands Parkway would survive as a stop on the Nottingham-Leicester slow service, as there is a bit of catchment from the nearby college campus and the power station site will probably be redeveloped. But anyone wanting to park and ride to London will surely drive to Toton instead.

 

[tommy2215]

At least if you don't like the MML you are in the fortunate position of having a degree of choice by going to Doncaster. If you want to appreciate the quality of job EMT do, try taking GC or HT from Doncaster instead and you might appreciate EMT a bit more.

Whenever I go to London I always use Grand Central from Doncaster rather than EMT because I find that Grand Central is better than EMT in almost every way.

 

[Iskra]

Whenever I go to London I always use Grand Central from Doncaster rather than EMT because I find that Grand Central is better than EMT in almost every way.

Apart from fleet reliability, poor service frequency and complete lack of any station staff in London to assist if things go wrong.

Might be okay for the occasional leisure travel, but I wouldn’t want to use them multiple times a week.

 

[whhistle]

I wonder if they'd curtail the Sheffield extension all together for the franchise?
So the mainline route would stop at Derby and Nottingham. Change at those stations for stations further north (thinking XC could pick up the Derby - Sheffield EMT passengers).

Weird perhaps and probably not popular but operationally, it seems to make sense.