• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Sheffield - To remodel or not remodel, that is the question

Status
Not open for further replies.

DimTim

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2013
Messages
183
Is there room for 4 tracks north? My impression is that although there are 2 double 'tunnels' leaving the station 2 lines form headshunts & it narrows to 2 tracks prior to Nunnery Main Line Junction.

There was in the past 4 lines south but rationalisation removed 2. There was also some easing of curves. Here is not sufficient room for the original slows past Tesco at Millhouses!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

snowball

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2013
Messages
7,711
Location
Leeds
Is there room for 4 tracks north? My impression is that although there are 2 double 'tunnels' leaving the station 2 lines form headshunts & it narrows to 2 tracks prior to Nunnery Main Line Junction.
As discussed by IanXC in post #27, 4-tracking northward would require rebuilding a lot of bridges and short tunnels, perhaps by opening some of them out.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,096
Yeah, uh, there's the small problem of a river underneath.

Just like Crewe N Junction, then, where HS2 is going underneath the lot. Sheffield would be do-able: it's not as though the Sheaf is in a deep gorge, it's just a culvert. I agree that a wider flood prevention scheme would be a good idea though, quite a few bits of one have already been built
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,695
This sort of reconstruction would cost as much as simply going back to the Meadowhall route - and there are relatively few trains through Sheffield that don't also go to Meadowhall.
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
3,990
I bet cutting back HS2 phase 2b east to Clay Cross, dropping East Midlands hub and serving Sheffield, Nottingham and Derby with classic compatible units joining at Birmingham Interchange may start to look appealing soon. Extending the western branch across the Pennines to Leeds and York would be a big boost for the Tories in the north. The east branch plans have become a mess while Lichfield to Crewe has been brought forward six years.
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,223
I bet cutting back HS2 phase 2b east to Clay Cross, dropping East Midlands hub and serving Sheffield, Nottingham and Derby with classic compatible units joining at Birmingham Interchange may start to look appealing soon. Extending the western branch across the Pennines to Leeds and York would be a big boost for the Tories in the north. The east branch plans have become a mess while Lichfield to Crewe has been brought forward six years.

No. That basic route configuration was rejected back in 2010 in favour of the Y network. Running Newcastle-London trains via Manchester means that everyone gets a worse service for no good reason. HS3/NPR needs different decisions made to make it as useful as possible.
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
3,990
No. That basic route configuration was rejected back in 2010 in favour of the Y network. Running Newcastle-London trains via Manchester means that everyone gets a worse service for no good reason. HS3/NPR needs different decisions made to make it as useful as possible.

How would Manchester to Leeds/Newcastle have a worse service? Or Liverpool to Leeds/Newcastle using classic compatible stock? If Leeds-London/Birmingham ran through Manchester without stopping the journey time would be comparable and there would still be plenty of paths for HS services across the North. The politics of 2010 were very different and the opposition to Meadowhall and Totten has not helped. Phase 2a should have received royal assent by easter 2019, the route from Crewe to Manchester will be straightforward while everyone will be still squabbling about the eastern branch. I think it will still go head but further revisions are certainly possible.
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,223
How would Manchester to Leeds/Newcastle have a worse service? Or Liverpool to Leeds/Newcastle using classic compatible stock? If Leeds-London/Birmingham ran through Manchester without stopping the journey time would be comparable and there would still be plenty of paths for HS services across the North. The politics of 2010 were very different and the opposition to Meadowhall and Totten has not helped. Phase 2a should have received royal assent by easter 2019, the route from Crewe to Manchester will be straightforward while everyone will be still squabbling about the eastern branch. I think it will still go head but further revisions are certainly possible.

HS2 tracks are designed around the planned service pattern, which is then planned around how many passenger journeys there would be to London.

On a simplistic level, HS2 was originally designed as one core railway from London to just before Birmingham Interchange, and then a large number of different operational branches, designed for different sets of passengers. These were:

Birmingham and the West Midlands (Birmingham Interchange, Curzon Street)
Manchester (Manchester Airport, Piccadilly)
Staffordshire, Cheshire and Merseyside (Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn, Liverpool Lime Street)
Lancashire (Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston)
Scotland (Preston, Glasgow Central or Haymarket and Waverley)
The East Midlands and South/West Yorkshire (East Midlands Hub, Sheffield Meadowhall, Leeds New Lane)
The North East (York, Darlington, Newcastle)

Within these seven basic service branches, there might be slight tweaks with some calls dropped or sometimes an extra call added, but they're pretty self-standing. The intention is that trains run so that they are as close as possible to 100% full after leaving the final stop before the core. This means the expense of the Phase 1 core network is used as intensively as possible, keeping the business case as good as it can get. Obviously, some of these service patterns overlap each other slightly. The Newcastle trains obviously have to run along the same tracks as the Leeds ones until the junction to York. But, operationally speaking, there is basically no interaction between them. Newcastle trains would, for the most part, run straight through all the way to the core. London services had no reason to call at both York and East Midlands Hub, as trains from Newcastle would be full by Yorkshire and thus have no economic or capacity reason to stop anywhere south of there. Connections like York to East Midlands Hub were to be provided by the Birmingham services, which were to act as stoppers as they would have plenty (indeed, far too much) capacity to spare and would have little competition.

Since that original network was planned, there have been some slight variations. But, for the most part, the system will still be the same. Given the 200m limitation on classic-compatible branches, it seems likely that the Sheffield terminators will share paths with some of the Leeds or Newcastle services on the core. There may also be changes on the western side using the ability of a Crewe Hub to split and join sets. Ultimately whatever happens the notion that all trains will be full south of Birmingham Interchange still holds.

When you go to the S network design, the tracks can't match these basic service patterns so well. For instance, the Newcastle trains would now have a big dogleg via two city centres, when they're still going to be full south of York. They get slowed down for no good reason, making them less economic, without adding any new passengers. Meanwhile, the HS2 infrastructure in Manchester and Leeds has to be different as well to cope with the need to let the Newcastle services run straight through. At the moment, both cities have 230km/h limited branches which are able to slow down and become more flexible as they get into their built-up urban environments, reducing the cost and disruption of building them. If they had to be full mainlines, it would be much, much harder to weave the tracks through the city. You would probably need to build them in tunnels, but then you have to build tunnelled stations as well. The alternative is to build the mainline as a bypass around the city, and then still have a branch into the core. But, you then still have extra cost. On top of that, you also make it uneconomic to serve other places. The East Midlands and South Yorkshire are not important enough to justify the construction of much new track at all if trains to Leeds and the North East won't also share that track. You can't rely on the Cross Country route to get trains from Birmingham Interchange to Derby either, as they would be too slow and capacity benefits would be severely limited.

It's important to understand that the nature of what the North of England needs is very different to HS2. HS2 has to be better than two-and-a-half quasi-high speed lines (the WCML and ECML) which are already fairly fast and direct. Therefore, it has to be a massive bypass line with a very high top speed and few stops. What the North needs is mainlines the quality of the WCML and ECML to connect its major cities, when today it only has commuter and regional routes. Since the journeys are shorter and the destinations are closer together, the benefit of increasing speed above 230km/h is not worth the costs.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,871
Location
Nottingham
To add to that, current projections show HS2 only 30min or so faster than the ECML between London and York or beyond. Running them via Manchester they probably wouldn't be any faster than the ECML, especially if VTEC's plans for limited stop trains come to pass. So in journey times Leeds would benefit a bit from an S-shaped network but further north wouldn't, removing much of the political and business case benefits of this leg of HS2.
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
3,990
Phase 2b times are:

Manchester - 1 hour 8 minutes
Leeds - 1 hour 23 minutes
Newcastle - 2 hours 8 minutes.

Assuming through tracks in Manchester for Leeds and Newcastle trains and a Manchester - Leeds journey time of 20 minutes it would be only 5 minutes slower. The journey time for Newcastle will be 2 hours 19 minutes vs todays fastest time of 2 hours 36 minutes so the journey times will comparable and Leeds needs bypassing anyway. I preferred the original HS3 concept of forming one economic city region through extremely fast journey times.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,871
Location
Nottingham
Phase 2b times are:

Manchester - 1 hour 8 minutes
Leeds - 1 hour 23 minutes
Newcastle - 2 hours 8 minutes.

Assuming through tracks in Manchester for Leeds and Newcastle trains and a Manchester - Leeds journey time of 20 minutes it would be only 5 minutes slower. The journey time for Newcastle will be 2 hours 19 minutes vs todays fastest time of 2 hours 36 minutes so the journey times will comparable and Leeds needs bypassing anyway. I preferred the original HS3 concept of forming one economic city region through extremely fast journey times.

I don't know where you get Manchester-Leeds in 20min given that HS3 is targeting half an hour. This would make Leeds 15min slower than via the Y network and Newcastle only 7min faster than today.
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
3,990
I don't know where you get Manchester-Leeds in 20min given that HS3 is targeting half an hour. This would make Leeds 15min slower than via the Y network and Newcastle only 7min faster than today.

HS3 / NPR is an upgrade of the existing line. I was suggesting replacing Clay Cross to Leeds with extending the western branch from Manchester to Leeds with a similar line speed to the rest of HS2. Also running Newcastle/Leeds to London through Manchester without stopping and Newcastle services bypassing Leeds.
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,223
HS3 / NPR is an upgrade of the existing line. I was suggesting replacing Clay Cross to Leeds with extending the western branch from Manchester to Leeds with a similar line speed to the rest of HS2. Also running Newcastle/Leeds to London through Manchester without stopping and Newcastle services bypassing Leeds.

But, then you're causing chaos in Manchester for not a lot of gain. Because the branch has a max speed of 230km/h, and that can decrease as you get closer to the buffers, it's possible to build the city centre station parallel to and on the same level as the existing platforms at Piccadilly. If you built the mainline to run through, it would require a tunnelled station oriented in-line. Essentially what you would be asking for is an equivalent of Stratford Box in the middle of Manchester. The box is a whole kilometre long! Even Old Oak Common isn't that bad, since it's designed around all trains stopping. Remember, your Leeds/Newcastle services wouldn't gain anything at all from going via Manchester. The only plausible benefit is that you get NPR 'for free', but that's really not the case given the enormous increases in cost and complexity and reductions in benefits that you cause.

Remember too that HS2 Phase 2 will be delivered in 2033. NPR improvements can't wait that long, especially when there is some relatively low-hanging fruit which could be delivered almost a decade earlier if the Treasury provides the funding.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,695
I don't know where you get Manchester-Leeds in 20min given that HS3 is targeting half an hour. This would make Leeds 15min slower than via the Y network and Newcastle only 7min faster than today.

HS2 starts running through Manchester at 320kph (assuming the trackwork was set to favour through routes, as would seem reasonable considering the other route goest hrough the platforms)

Which means the calculation of the Leeds journey time is just the Manchester journey time plus the time to traverse 54km or so (since no stop at Manchester we have the same stopping allowance, just have to travel the extra distance).

10 minutes or so further to Leeds than Manchester.

Which interestingly makes the Manchester route actually faster.
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
3,990
But, then you're causing chaos in Manchester for not a lot of gain. Because the branch has a max speed of 230km/h, and that can decrease as you get closer to the buffers, it's possible to build the city centre station parallel to and on the same level as the existing platforms at Piccadilly. If you built the mainline to run through, it would require a tunnelled station oriented in-line. Essentially what you would be asking for is an equivalent of Stratford Box in the middle of Manchester. The box is a whole kilometre long! Even Old Oak Common isn't that bad, since it's designed around all trains stopping. Remember, your Leeds/Newcastle services wouldn't gain anything at all from going via Manchester. The only plausible benefit is that you get NPR 'for free', but that's really not the case given the enormous increases in cost and complexity and reductions in benefits that you cause.

Remember too that HS2 Phase 2 will be delivered in 2033. NPR improvements can't wait that long, especially when there is some relatively low-hanging fruit which could be delivered almost a decade earlier if the Treasury provides the funding.

Anything that does not involve a new route and tunnelling is not going to cut journey time to 30 minutes, the existing route is too slow. Under 40 minutes is certainly achievable at a low cost by the most recent electrification date of 2022. Combined with the higher frequency service and new rolling stock that would be a significant boost prior to HS2 in 2033. A shortened eastern branch could open to Clay Cross after Crewe in 2027 but before 2033.
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,223
Anything that does not involve a new route and tunnelling is not going to cut journey time to 30 minutes, the existing route is too slow. Under 40 minutes is certainly achievable at a low cost by the most recent electrification date of 2022. Combined with the higher frequency service and new rolling stock that would be a significant boost prior to HS2 in 2033. A shortened eastern branch could open to Clay Cross after Crewe in 2027 but before 2033.

You can build a new route limited to 230km/h. You won't see any real benefit of increasing speeds beyond that. Look at HS1 and see how a 230km/h max speed between St Pancras and Ebbsfleet has basically no impact on the journey times for both Eurostar and Southeastern Highspeed services. A 230km/h route would be much cheaper to build than a >300km/h one, either in tunnel (as the tunnel radius can be lower due to aerodynamic effects) or on the surface.

The problem with opening to Clay Cross first is that it would only benefit the Sheffield services. Phase 2a involves shifting some spending earlier, but in return it results in significant benefits for most of the Phase 1 services. Without being able to benefit Leeds and Newcastle services, the extra cost of a sped-up construction programme would be hard to justify. Remember that you would need to build the whole thing from Birmingham to Clay Cross, including the East Midlands Hub station, for the sake of two trains an hour. Phase 2a is much shorter and simpler, making it fairly easy to tag on.
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
3,990
You can build a new route limited to 230km/h. You won't see any real benefit of increasing speeds beyond that. Look at HS1 and see how a 230km/h max speed between St Pancras and Ebbsfleet has basically no impact on the journey times for both Eurostar and Southeastern Highspeed services. A 230km/h route would be much cheaper to build than a >300km/h one, either in tunnel (as the tunnel radius can be lower due to aerodynamic effects) or on the surface.

The problem with opening to Clay Cross first is that it would only benefit the Sheffield services. Phase 2a involves shifting some spending earlier, but in return it results in significant benefits for most of the Phase 1 services. Without being able to benefit Leeds and Newcastle services, the extra cost of a sped-up construction programme would be hard to justify. Remember that you would need to build the whole thing from Birmingham to Clay Cross, including the East Midlands Hub station, for the sake of two trains an hour. Phase 2a is much shorter and simpler, making it fairly easy to tag on.

230km/h would be sufficient to match the Leeds journey time planned for the eastern branch.

Opening to Clay Cross early could be combined with dropping East Midlands Hub and running classic compatible services from Nottingham and Derby in addition to 2tph from Sheffield to London and HS services to Birmingham. Starting HS2 services earlier would be highly beneficial in the context of the south section of the MML becoming dominated by Thameslink and Corby EMUs.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,695
Running classic comaptible services from Nottingham and Derby will eat highly valuable core paths, even if they share segments.

And I doubt there is enough demand to justify the paths unless you use 7-unit AGV style trains that are only 130m long.
 

DPWH

On Moderation
Joined
8 Sep 2016
Messages
244
I agree that Toton is the problem. Sending the eastern HS2 branch through Derby would give better connectivity and mean that all of the fast non-stop St Pancras-Leicester trains could go to Nottingham with the stopping pattern trains travelling onto Derby. Derby would require remodelling (but it needs that anyway), but threading the tracks through could be interesting.

The alternative I guess would be to not build Toton station, but then where would the services split/combine?

Or not build HS2 eastern leg at all, and just built the western leg. What the MML needs more than anything else is straightforward electrification. All the way. This was promised when HS2 was funded, but we now know that that was a lie.

A later HS east coast running London-Leicester-Nottingham-Sheffield-Leeds-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh would IMHO complement HS2 - but that's for 2050, I think.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,871
Location
Nottingham
I agree that Toton is the problem. Sending the eastern HS2 branch through Derby would give better connectivity and mean that all of the fast non-stop St Pancras-Leicester trains could go to Nottingham with the stopping pattern trains travelling onto Derby. Derby would require remodelling (but it needs that anyway), but threading the tracks through could be interesting.

The alternative I guess would be to not build Toton station, but then where would the services split/combine?

Or not build HS2 eastern leg at all, and just built the western leg. What the MML needs more than anything else is straightforward electrification. All the way. This was promised when HS2 was funded, but we now know that that was a lie.

A later HS east coast running London-Leicester-Nottingham-Sheffield-Leeds-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh would IMHO complement HS2 - but that's for 2050, I think.
Derby re-modelling is now designed and going ahead next year. It takes away whatever space was available previously when a HS2 route through Derby was considered.

A splitting station and connection to the MML near East Midlands Parkway would allow through trains to Nottingham and possibly Derby, but as noted up-thread there isn't enough capacity on HS2 for these in addition to all the other services envisaged.
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,244
Location
Torbay
A heavy rail connecting service between Toton and both Derby and Nottingham might be established by constructing a new south - east connection at Trowell. Trains between Derby and Nottingham would then be diverted via Toton and the new curve, while trains between Nottingham and Chesterfield would run via Beeston and Toton. Alternatively without a new curve, Derby - Nottingham services could reverse at the south end of the new Toton station. There are pros and cons with both ideas. Going via Trowell is a fairly long way round and misses local calls at Attenborough and Beeston, but equally an additional stop incliuding a reversal at Toton could add up to 6 or 7 minutes to journey times. Maybe OK for locals but perhaps not an attractive routing for the Cardiff Cross Countries. Nottingham - Chesterfield trains going via Toton is more plausible and offers the possibility of a Beeston stop, but that could leave Radford - Trowell without regular passenger service. Maybe the formation could see resuse as part of NET. An option for getting to Ilkeston maybe.
 
Last edited:

D869

Member
Joined
6 Feb 2014
Messages
53
Is is possible to have a single-track loop at Toton so that Derby-Nottingham trains won't need to reverse?
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,695
I suppose it would be close to a kilometre of track even wtih a minimum unit curve radius of like 150m.
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,244
Location
Torbay
I suppose it would be close to a kilometre of track even wtih a minimum unit curve radius of like 150m.
That would take a few minutes to negotiate. Probably quicker to change ends with a modern mu train.
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,223
It would presumably be easier and better to put a chord in at Trowell. If you demolish the two industrial buildings and start the chord further back towards Nottingham the curve radius might not be too bad at all. This would be the sort of project a regional transport operator could sponsor to make the most of the HS2 hub at Toton. Building on top of the MML electrification (it will be done by 2033, don't worry) it would be fairly straightforward to build up a basic electrified urban/regional rail network.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,695
I make a route via Trowell about 3km longer than the current route.
So it might be viable if the train can get the speed up.

Its only two minutes further at 60mph after all, and you avoid the reverse.

Although I think I would prefer the Loop since that allows a single line to serve the existing intermediate stations, which you can't do via Trowell.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,871
Location
Nottingham
It would presumably be easier and better to put a chord in at Trowell. If you demolish the two industrial buildings and start the chord further back towards Nottingham the curve radius might not be too bad at all. This would be the sort of project a regional transport operator could sponsor to make the most of the HS2 hub at Toton. Building on top of the MML electrification (it will be done by 2033, don't worry) it would be fairly straightforward to build up a basic electrified urban/regional rail network.
Presuming you mean the buildings just east of the M1, demolishing these but not the housing would give a radius of about 200m and possibly a section parallel to the Erewash Valley to get down to track level before that line goes under the M1 - rather similar to the Bacon Factory Curve in Ipswich. However the M1 itself is supposed to be re-aligned further west at both crossings to make way for HS2, complicating matters somewhat.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top