Sheffield Tram Train Service Suspended

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Llandudno, 14 Dec 2019.

  1. Llandudno

    Llandudno Member

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    According to BBC Radio Sheffield (don’t know how to show links sorry!) the Sheffield-Rotherham tram train service has been suspended on the advice of Stadler, the company who built the units?

    How many years late was this project?
    How much did it cost compared to original budget?
    Timetable is rubbish, three non clock face trams per hour?

    The Tram Train project was supposed to be a trial to see if it could rolled out across the UK, seems a complete white elephant!

    Trains are great.
    Trams are great, especially in Manchester and Nottingham

    But combined?

    Are there any successful Tram-Trains operating anywhere else in the world?
     
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  3. Hadrian

    Hadrian Member

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    Yes - Karlsruhe is an excellent example of tram/trains operating through the city centre and then considerable distances into the surrounding area (as trains).
     
  4. Quakkerillo

    Quakkerillo Member

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    Saw it on Twitter this morning. Were also some major issues last night, although not all with the tram-train.

    But yes, Tram-Train is successful in many other places. The Randstadrail is a good example, with the Zoetermeer routes running as train/light-rail between The Hague Central and Zoetermeer, and as trams within The Hague itself. Also the Aalsmeerlijn near Amsterdam used to operate perfectly like this (now it's under all sorts of reconstruction).
    Also seen it in many other places. The problem is that they always try to re-invent the wheel; things have to be flashier and fancier, but also every different town and region will put new requirements in for the production. Different signalling systems, or other technology. That makes it more difficult than when we'd have EU-wide industry standards, which they're slowly applying in various fields. Because every time they have to redesign, or reinvent something. There's going to be a whole new set of (teething) issues that'll come up at some point.
     
  5. Bayum

    Bayum Established Member

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    I’ve noticed an awful lot of ‘tram-train service suspended’ announcements on the traffic announcements on the radio the last few weeks
     
  6. baffobear

    baffobear New Member

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    Wonder if it’s related to the Greater anglia class 745/755 stock issues...
     
  7. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    From Supertram twitter:
    No hint of reason or likely timescale.
     
  8. ohgoditsjames

    ohgoditsjames Member

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    I’d have much preferred the money being spent on a new tram line/tram train to Stocksbridge. Hope this isn’t a nail in the coffin for future tram extensions that are desperately needed.
     
    Last edited: 14 Dec 2019
  9. Timrud

    Timrud Member

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    Problem with the underside
     
  10. TUC

    TUC Established Member

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    I hope writs fly. Far too many examples of UK rail operators accepting poor quality and late deliveries. Deliver on time and high quality , otherwise every contract penalty will be enforced, should be the policy to change the culture.
     
  11. Re 4/4

    Re 4/4 Member

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    Does the Zurich S18 "Forchbahn" count as a tram-train? Used that successfully for many years.
     
  12. dk1

    dk1 Established Member

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    Those are all basically resolved now. I'd be very surprised if there is any link between the two.
     
  13. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    They have to fit in around the long established Northern services through Rotherham (which can't be tinkered with as they rely not he single track Holmes Chord, the flat crossings onto the Meadowhall - Swinton line etc).

    So northbound you have

    • xx:19 (Adwick)
    • xx:28 (Leeds)
    • xx:42 (Hull)

    Southbound you have

    • xx:28 (ex Hull)
    • xx:45 (ex Leeds)
    • xx:58 (ex Adwick)

    ...so it's going to be hard to path a service through Rotherham (especially as the northbound tram train has to cross the southbound line and vice versa), before you even worry about freight services plus the irregular York services.

    TramTrain isn't perfect, it feels like (whilst Manchester builds thousands of miles of light rail) the only way that South Yorkshire had a chance of expansion was if we accepted being a guinea pig and dealing with all of the complicated new technology which has meant taking significantly longer and going significantly over-budget.

    Ideally we'd have had some conventional extensions to the network in the twenty five years since it opened (like the way that Birmingham/ Tyne'n'Wear/ Manchester have had and Edinburgh is about to get) - maybe an extension beyond Herdings to a P&R near Meadowhead roundabout, maybe up to the Hallamshire and Broomhill (Stocksbridge always seems a bit of a Solution In Need Of A Problem, given the low population density beyond Middlewood, the problem with trying to serve the Stocksbridge/ Deepcar area with a tram at the bottom of the valley). Instead we've waited a long time for a relatively modest extension (when compared to Manchester/ Wearside) just so we can be the test bed for complicated technology, mainly for the benefit of other places so that they can use the "off the shelf" technology once we've finished proving whether it works.

    Meh...
     
  14. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    To which the manufacturers will reply to the operator: you accepted them and signed them off as fit for service.

    Reaching for the contract and going legal isn’t going to help fix the problem, and such problems are rarely just one side’s fault; the operator has often also been deficient.
     
  15. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    As I wrote in the dedicated tram-train thread:

     
  16. Llandudno

    Llandudno Member

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    Precisely, a white elephant. If you can’t schedule a decent tram train timetable between the proper trains why build it all!

    Waste of money, probably just a political decision to extend Supertram into a neighbouring authority, Rotherham who presumably contribute financially to SYPTE.
     
  17. dk1

    dk1 Established Member

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    Oh right. Cheers ta. Not had a chance to seek that one out.
     
  18. dm1

    dm1 Member

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    Under Swiss law, there is no legal difference between a tram and a train, so there are a lot of lines that have a 'tram' character and 'train' character for different parts of their route, the Forchbahn being one such example. Another is the Berminabahn.
     
  19. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    There's no sign of any disruption on the Karlsruhe Verkehrsverbund website, where some of very similar Stadler vehicles operate. Which suggests the problem is something specific to UK compatibility rather than with the fundamental design.
     
  20. M60lad

    M60lad Member

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    Do we actually know what the actual problem is that has made the manufacture make the decision to withdraw the whole fleet until further notice?
     
  21. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    No, Sheffield are saying they havent been briefed on the issue yet.
     
  22. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Established Member

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    Is it actually the trams running on National Rail that has been suspended (alluding to a compatibility issue with NR and the 399s), or is it that the 399s have been withdrawn meaning the TT obviously cannot run?
     
  23. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Interesting. If I was told to stop using something my first question (following stopping using it just in case) would be "why?"
     
  24. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    But before asking that question I would put out some publicity to let people know the service isn't running. So at the time of that announcement they didn't know, and there has been no further announcement. It's likely that Stagecoach will have more information behind the scenes by now, but they are probably waiting until there is enough to warrant another press release and agreement with SYPTE and Stadler to issue it.
     
  25. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    Do you honestly (HONESTLY) think people invovled in introducing new rolling stock just sit back and say nah mate dont worry about being 6 months late. It'll be reet? We wont bother with the penalties. You just crack on when you are ready?

    I despair at this place. I really do.
     
    Last edited: 15 Dec 2019
  26. dosxuk

    dosxuk Member

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    .....
     
    Last edited: 18 Dec 2019
  27. TC60054

    TC60054 Member

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    Supertram will have been briefed on the issue and are just choosing not to release it publicly.
    If it's done on Stadler's advice it'll be all six 399s temporarily withdrawn, hence no TT.
    Certainly there was an abundance of them outside Nunnery on Saturday.
     
  28. Taunton

    Taunton Established Member

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    Well that's certainly the attitude TfL have with Crossrail. In fact they are looking for substantial extra funding to complete what must surely have been in the original contracts.
     
  29. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    Supertram are indicating Tuesday at the earliest before services can resume.

    To get stuff running again after only a weekend would suggest they either needed a fleet wide inspection for damage/wear after something was found on one, or its a software issue.
     
  30. RealTrains07

    RealTrains07 On Moderation

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    Bombardier is an example of this
     
  31. TRAX

    TRAX Member

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    Just because the UK doesn’t know how to run a tram-train doesn’t mean the rest of the world doesn’t. And is this really the case, does the UK have problems in running a tram-train or is it just your perception from just a passenger’s point of view ?
    I think the UK knows perfectly well how to operate a light rail network, but just because it seems to you that it’s not the case when you don’t even know what the issues are doesn’t mean that’s not the case and that the rest of the world is just as bad or worse.
    To be honest the UK has been quite late to the modern light rail party and it’s a bit short-minded to wonder if the rest of the world’s tram-trains are bad when the UK is just discovering the concept and the rest of the world has been operating networks of it for the last 30 years.
     
  32. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I'm quite disappointed they aren't being open about the problem. Generally, TOCs are open about issues like this.
     

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