Shopping Trolleys & 3rd Rail = happy excited idiots. Current punishment suiting the crime?

[Metal_gee_man]

There's been a spate of idiots throwing shopping trolleys in front of South Eastern trains of late, 2 in 3 days at Folkestone West, one at Deal, a couple of months ago at Canterbury, what the F is up with these people! They must love the firework show or the damage to the trains it's beyond the joke now!
How do other areas around the country cope with this problem, does it not happen (ya know lack of sparks) or have we just got a special breed of a*+#holes in the south east

https://twitter.com/Se_Railway/status/1094304908638146560?s=19

UPDATE: Because of an object on the line at #FolkestoneWest, trains are currently at a stand. The electric current has been switched off so that the object can be removed

https://twitter.com/Se_Railway/status/1093221518589472768?s=19

⚠ Reports of a train hitting a shopping trolley near #FolkestoneWest - services in both directions are being held while driver investigates. Follow this thread for updates

 

[trainmania100]

Must have very serious mental health problems, hopefully they get the help they need before they kill someone

 

[DarloRich]

Stupid behaviour but not limited to the railways

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Must have very serious mental health problems, hopefully they get the help they need before they kill someone

I wish it was mental health issues, it's a mix of unmanned stations, no steps to drag the trolley up to (all level) and I'd guess kids thinking it's funny! I could be wrong

 

[DarloRich]

I wish it was mental health issues, it's a mix of unmanned stations, no steps to drag the trolley up to (all level) and I'd guess kids thinking it's funny! I could be wrong

As far as they are concerned it is a bit of harmless fun

 

[TEW]

Had a spate of them around Ewell West about a year ago, was happening almost every evening at one point.

 

[Modron]

Must have very serious mental health problems, hopefully they get the help they need before they kill someone

I agree.

Part of the 'no shame, no blame' culture - if you point out that somebody is misbehaving or in the wrong then you're the bully.

There was an incident in Swansea, recently, where youths were lobbing bricks at cars. The courts will just give them a simple fine and tell them not to do it again.

 

[A Challenge]

Another thing might be that it is significantly less dangerous for the perpetrator on DC third/fourth rail line than AC(/DC in some places) overhead line, though it doesn't make a difference if it's non-electrified to this, except possibly, as you say, the sparks.

Have BTP officers in the area possibly (non-uniformed or hiding if they want to catch them in the act) and there must be something they can prosecute them for?

 

[Antman]

There have been similar incidents in the Folkestone/Dover area in the past, probably the same idiots are responsible?

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Have BTP officers in the area possibly (non-uniformed or hiding if they want to catch them in the act) and there must be something they can prosecute them for?

Endangering lives on the railway is a pretty big one, but it's like always right place, right time, or even man the bloody station it has a ticketed 600k passengers a year but its much busier than that because its not ticket barrierred or regularly patrolled by enforcement officers

 

[A Challenge]

After my previous posts, I've noticed that I don't remember hearing about an incident with a shopping trolley on the tracks in SWR-land, so that ruins my earlier theory!

 

[jamesst]

There's spates of them up in Merseyside land, bikes are another favorite

 

[Modron]

Another thing might be that it is significantly less dangerous for the perpetrator on DC third/fourth rail line than AC(/DC in some places) overhead line, though it doesn't make a difference if it's non-electrified to this, except possibly, as you say, the sparks.

Have BTP officers in the area possibly (non-uniformed or hiding if they want to catch them in the act) and there must be something they can prosecute them for?

Even if there are extra patrols, you've always got the 'Human Rights' lawyers who will always seek to have these 'poor and misunderstood' kids let off with a caution.

I've known plenty of 'poor and misunderstood' kids - none of them would ever dream of hurting people in such a way.

Mandatory 10 year jail term per offence with no right of appeal - that would soon stop these idiots.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Keeping the track clear of likely ammunition is a remarkably good policy - in my time I have removed countless potential obstructions by lobbing them over the fence. As have my train crews when I managed them.

Used to encourage the removal of potential track debris , such that when RT used to ask for last moment possessions , they were agreed on the proviso they would carry out good housekeeping efforts. This in "bomb alley" sections of North London.

 

[AndrewE]

There's spates of them up in Merseyside land, bikes are another favorite

...which is why the collector shoes were taken off the outer ends of Merseyrail EMUs. Less of a problem nowadays, I think, as there's less gubbins on the leading bogies for them to get tangled up in.

 

[AndrewE]

Keeping the track clear of likely ammunition is a remarkably good policy - in my time I have removed countless potential obstructions by lobbing them over the fence. As have my train crews when I managed them.

Used to encourage the removal of potential track debris , such that when RT used to ask for last moment possessions , they were agreed on the proviso they would carry out good housekeeping efforts. This in "bomb alley" sections of North London.

isn't the rubbish likely to be thrown back over onto the track again then?

 

[tsr]

There’s an awful lot of this sort of behaviour in the southeast in particular at the moment, not helped by very poor BTP staffing levels which are more than an open secret now. Some areas have even had their Network Rail MOMs (Mobile Operations Managers) removed or regularly unavailable due to staffing issues, which is the last straw as there’s literally nobody to even deal with the aftermath at all quickly.

Tonight seems to have been quite bad, with various other lineside incidents also reported in the Folkestone area especially, but also issues elsewhere, including several obstructions likely to have been thrown or placed on the track at Farncombe.

 

[Antman]

Even if there are extra patrols, you've always got the 'Human Rights' lawyers who will always seek to have these 'poor and misunderstood' kids let off with a caution.

I've known plenty of 'poor and misunderstood' kids - none of them would ever dream of hurting people in such a way.

Mandatory 10 year jail term per offence with no right of appeal - that would soon stop these idiots.

Throwing shopping trollies or bikes onto railway lines is clearly an idiotic thing to do but seriously nobody is going to get 10 jail for it, in fact it's unlikely they'll get any custodial sentence.

Do BTP do school visits to show kids the danger of such antics?

 

[pompeyfan]

There’s an awful lot of this sort of behaviour in the southeast in particular at the moment, not helped by very poor BTP staffing levels which are more than an open secret now. Some areas have even had their Network Rail MOMs (Mobile Operations Managers) removed or regularly unavailable due to staffing issues, which is the last straw as there’s literally nobody to even deal with the aftermath at all quickly.

Tonight seems to have been quite bad, with various other lineside incidents also reported in the Folkestone area especially, but also issues elsewhere, including several obstructions likely to have been thrown or placed on the track at Farncombe.

Interesting you mention Farncombe, there and Godalming is a bit of a hot spot lately for antisocial behaviour. That said I’ve not seen anything the logs about the latest incident.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not sure whether I should give people ideas, but a few years ago now (so we’ll back in SWT days) I recall there were a few bikes thrown in a short period at Woolston?

 

[KingJ]

After my previous posts, I've noticed that I don't remember hearing about an incident with a shopping trolley on the tracks in SWR-land, so that ruins my earlier theory!

Not a shopping trolley, but a bike and traffic cones were thrown on to the line at Farncombe last night - near miss with an oncoming service.

https://twitter.com/BTPSurrey/status/1094395737109159936

This evenings award for stupidity goes to the people who decided to throw a bike and two road cones on to the track at #Farncombe shortly before a train was due to pass through the station. A serious incident with potentially fatal consequences - #wewillfindyou

Picture attached to the tweet shows a SWR Class 450 at Farncombe station stopped a few meters away from a bike and two traffic cones on the track.


There's been a bit of disruption on the Maidstone East this afternoon. Southeastern aren't saying any more than a "problem currently under investigation" as the cause, however on open data sites the cause is listed as an obstruction on the line - albeit with the attribution code XO ("External trees, building or objects encroaching onto Network Rail infrastructure (not due to weather or vandalism)") so it's not clear if something was thrown on to the tracks or not given how inaccurate the attribution reasons on open data sites can be at times. However, someone on one of the affected services seems to imply it either struck something or there was a significant fault with the equipment underneath the solebar;

https://twitter.com/Fellj01/status/1094572860784459776

Something exploded under the train I'm on as soon as it left Maidstone... Now we're stuck here for at least another hour as they're sending assistance from LONDON TO KENT. ugh..

Certainly backs up @tsr 's comments on a general lack of BTP and MOM availability.

 

[Modron]

Throwing shopping trollies or bikes onto railway lines is clearly an idiotic thing to do but seriously nobody is going to get 10 jail for it, in fact it's unlikely they'll get any custodial sentence.

Do BTP do school visits to show kids the danger of such antics?

Exactly. The law needs to be tightened upon these people; one day, somebody will die as a result of their actions and then the vigilantes will start.

I don't think that the BTP ever visited my Primary or Secondary school.... certainly can't remember them being there.

 

[jamesst]

...which is why the collector shoes were taken off the outer ends of Merseyrail EMUs. Less of a problem nowadays, I think, as there's less gubbins on the leading bogies for them to get tangled up in.

That had nothing to do with why the collector shoes were removed to be honest, very rarely were they damaged by stuff on the track

 

[Mag_seven]

The courts will just give them a simple fine and tell them not to do it again.

Is that true or is it just Daily Mail outrage.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Exactly. The law needs to be tightened upon these people; one day, somebody will die as a result of their actions and then the vigilantes will start.

I don't think that the BTP ever visited my Primary or Secondary school.... certainly can't remember them being there.

I had 313001 derailed on the St Albans line as kids put some discarded fish plates laid on the running lines - carelessness on the part of the infrastracture guys - too low to be discarded by the lifeguards and the unit toppled over onto the bank. No-one badly hurt. The kids were identified , and to cut a long story short - prosecuted and as part of their punishment they had to explain their actions to the train crew, we ensured this was fully reported in the local media , and we had no further actions.

We rigorously followed through other incidents , and after an act of extreme stupidity at Canonbury (metal debris chucked under another 313 shoegear , causing it to be welded to the 3d rail with severe arcing I personally addressed the local school at Assembly time and read the riot act. These miscreants were also identified as a result.

We had a good programme of lecturing schools in the area , both by drivers and by the BTP. It held the line , and incidents were reduced. Just takes attention to detail and commitment and support to the staff. Plastic traffic cones were a real issue, as they were and are flexible enough to bounce under the undercarriage and cause issues with underfloor train equipment.

Which is why , even retired , I report these things.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Is that true or is it just Daily Mail outrage.

Read my report below - we pressed for "the full force of the law" - ditto with stone throwers. Both BTP and the Thames Valley / Met police then were very helpful.

 

[Modron]

Is that true or is it just Daily Mail outrage.

I don't read newspapers/comics

It's pretty much par for the course though with cases like these though.

 

[Meerkat]

We had a good programme of lecturing schools in the area

That does rely on the miscreants actually going to school! Got to try though....

 

[AndrewE]

That had nothing to do with why the collector shoes were removed to be honest, very rarely were they damaged by stuff on the track

I did a job at Birkenhead North depot (I think it was) where we were looking for a clean way of getting the thick black PVC insulation off the fabricated steel brackets which supported the wooden collector shoe beams. They told me that shopping trolleys dumped on the 3rd rail (which glowed bright red, jumped up in the air, cooled down and then did it again... providing a nice long firework show) were getting tangled up in the front bogie collector gear. This made it much more difficult to get the unit and service running again, so getting the recovery back down to pulling a shredded trolley out of a bogie was much better than having to unscramble it from the shoe-gear as well.
The idea of my job was to find a better way of removing the PVC than piling the brackets up on a pallet and setting fire to them.... Their next stage was to put a thinner fire-resistant insulation on the brackets.

 

[bishdunster]

Well into Mr Angry mode now, derailing a train? why wern't these bar stewards given a life sentence ???? And if they are going to put shopping trolleys on the juice rail they should keep hold of them as they do it ! Yes i know this wont go down well with the PC brigade, but WT* is this country coming to???