Shopping Trolleys & 3rd Rail = happy excited idiots. Current punishment suiting the crime?

[Modron]

It's beyond ridiculous how often it's happening in that area, maybe a reward should be offered for information leading to the conviction of those responsible? Somebody must know something.

Crimestoppers?

 

[6Gman]

If you are interested, Google the name 'Kate Scottow'.

Better still, look at the Twitter handle for one Stephanie Hayden for February 9th 2019 (flyinglawyer73), if you do not wish to read the Daily Mail story - The Daily Telegraph also covered the story, by means of balance.

In Stephanie's own words there was an injunction on this story, whereby Kate Scottow was forcibly separated from her young, autistic child and put into a police cell (effectively jailing, if only temporary) for misgendering Stephanie Hayden.

We can split hairs all day long about the definition of jailing - call it detaining if you will or whatever, the point being that the police will come down hard on some people for some things (and yes, I am aware that the homosexual community does get unwarranted and unsolicited abuse) but surely they need the power to come down harder on those people mentioned in the thread.

If the police put these kids in cells, they might get the short sharp shock that they need is the TLDR to this.

What has homosexuality got to do with anything?

 

[Modron]

It seems that some people are more concerned with nitpicking, rather than a debate on should the law come down heavier on people who commit vandalism and crime on the railways.

Very sad that we cannot communicate in English. I withdraw and no further participation - I stand firm by my beliefs that punishing these offenders more than we do and that leniency must be halted.

 

[6Gman]

The point I am trying to make is that the police took notice of that crime, yet it would seem that the miscreants responsible for the shopping trolley incident are still at large.

I know that the police in this country are over-stretched but surely you deal with vandalism and potential risk to human safety before you deal with somebody who has 'misgendered' or 'offended' you. There is such a thing as the block button or 'Disable My Account' feature, so you don't have to see what a person writes if you don't want to.

Is there even an ounce of evidence that the police investigation of these incidents in Kent have been compromised in any way whatsoever by the police in Hitchin questioning Ms Scottow?

 

[6Gman]

It seems that some people are more concerned with nitpicking, rather than a debate on should the law come down heavier on people who commit vandalism and crime on the railways.

Very sad that we cannot communicate in English. I withdraw and no further participation - I stand firm by my beliefs that punishing these offenders more than we do and that leniency must be halted.

You were the one who took us off into the world of misgendering and homosexuality!

 

[anme]

The point I am trying to make is that the police took notice of that crime, yet it would seem that the miscreants responsible for the shopping trolley incident are still at large.

I know that the police in this country are over-stretched but surely you deal with vandalism and potential risk to human safety before you deal with somebody who has 'misgendered' or 'offended' you. There is such a thing as the block button or 'Disable My Account' feature, so you don't have to see what a person writes if you don't want to.

The incidents under discussion in this thread happened in Folkestone (Kent). The alleged arrest for alleged "misgendering" happened in Hitchin (Hertfordshire). It seems unlikely that Kent police (or British Transport Police?) took the decision to transfer their officers from the railway vandalism case to a twitter abuse case happening outside their area of responsibility on the other side on London.

Also, the facts of the "misgendering" case are disputed so it may be better to drop it for now. And you still need to produce evidence for your "good faith" claim about human rights lawyers.

 

[tsr]

It's beyond ridiculous how often it's happening in that area, maybe a reward should be offered for information leading to the conviction of those responsible? Somebody must know something.

I suppose it's probably no coincidence that there appears to be a massive Tesco store literally a couple of hundred yards from the site of the latest incident. Back when I were a mere yoof, supermarkets had quite impressive preventative measures to stop people taking trolleys off-site, not that I'd have ever thrown them onto a railway line, mind!

No idea if this store does, but if not, it seems a bit of a shame - the money spent clearing up the recent incidents could probably pay for a superb trolley security system!

And without going into too much detail, railway security staff were in the immediate vicinity tonight, but clearly weren't quite in the right place at the right time. So at least there were resources nearby - and long may that continue.

Crimestoppers?

Funny really - it used to be the "next big thing" but I hear very little publicity for it nowadays. It seems to be an "oh, by the way, you could also try..." footnote on the bottom of police press releases, and on a very 90s-looking sticker on the side of police cars, and that's about it.

 

[ic31420]

It's very easy to say things like the police should "do something" and "somebody must know" something.i

It is actually incredibly difficult. I'm not going to bang on about staff shortages and cuts because that's done to death.

Bear in mind there are is likely to be one or two officers working anyone area dedicated to problem solving. ( a rough problematic priority neighbourhood and the team is now one officer down from 6) They only work 40 hours a week, so roughly one fifth of the time. If it's like where I work the response cops (who you usually see driving the vans and cars) will have no down time to patrol or be pro active. There is usually a queue of incidents that need attending 4-5 times the size of the available patrols . The last time finished a shift there was approaching 30 open incidents need it attending and 5 patrols which were already engaged. Should a blue light job come in then officers will be diverted from what they're already dealing with. Mostnof those incidents will be domestics of some description, concern for welfare, missing kids (often LAC) and that's before you get on to the stuff that's dealt with in the phone and fed back in behind the scenes (it's not like the fire service where officers are in the station waiting for the bell to ring - not intended as a slur on the water bobbies).
There is no burglary unit, robbery unit, proactive team, divisional tasking force, etc.
Each of those officers will have a workload of 15 or so investigations they're dealing with each with lines of enquiry to follow, statements to take, suspects to trace and interview (people often aren't arrested these days they're asked to attend for interview and arrested I they don't - remember kids you can go to jail without ever actually being arrested).

Going back to your trolly wallies, short of being there when they throw the trolly you're struggling. They'll tend not to throw them whilst someone is there, least of all someone with a pointy head and a bright yellow coat.
Which while a result in so far as you've preventes it you can't simply can't stand a cop every 300yds along the line.
Many years ago we ha an issue with arson in an area of 4 blocks of terraces. I ans a colleague spent 4 nights walking these blocks in random patterns, to our immense frustration three fires were lit (bushes, rubbish, empty house, cars etc). We eventually got someone but that came about by an unexpected route unconnected with the massive effort we put in.

CCTV is seen as a panacea, it's not. Even the most expensive CCTV is easily defeated by a 50p hat or hood. People know it so put their hood up and don't give a toss. It's often in the wrong position, to high or blown out by lights. It's use as a detection tool is limited to someone recognising the person on the cctv (facial features / distinctive features are needed not simply they're wearing the same addidas trackies and Nike Air Trainers that Billy La'scrote was wearing last week).

Forensics are not like on the TV, you need a decent smooth clean dry surface for a fingerprint assuming all the is present (most likely the handle of a trolly) a trolly handles will be handled by thousands of people and have thousands of prints. Those pulling it out from under the train will likely add some too, chuck in contamination and heat.

Fingerprints need, recovering and analysis, not something that happens in 30mins of the bill.

Fingerprints like DNA need the owner to be on the database, with young kids it's unlikely.

Crimestoppers and the likes can be a double edged sword. People have a tendency to phone up and say things like "Dave Smith did a burglary" or "John Brown is growing weed at his house, he has a blue car" which is lovely but pretty much useless, which dave Smith? which burglary? how is this known? etc etc.

Even if a name is given without something more to back it up there will be little chance of a successful prosecution.

I dare say the local force, drowning in its own incidents will simply say this is a BTP issue.

 

[Antman]

It's very easy to say things like the police should "do something" and "somebody must know" something.i

It is actually incredibly difficult. I'm not going to bang on about staff shortages and cuts because that's done to death.

Bear in mind there are is likely to be one or two officers working anyone area dedicated to problem solving. ( a rough problematic priority neighbourhood and the team is now one officer down from 6) They only work 40 hours a week, so roughly one fifth of the time. If it's like where I work the response cops (who you usually see driving the vans and cars) will have no down time to patrol or be pro active. There is usually a queue of incidents that need attending 4-5 times the size of the available patrols . The last time finished a shift there was approaching 30 open incidents need it attending and 5 patrols which were already engaged. Should a blue light job come in then officers will be diverted from what they're already dealing with. Mostnof those incidents will be domestics of some description, concern for welfare, missing kids (often LAC) and that's before you get on to the stuff that's dealt with in the phone and fed back in behind the scenes (it's not like the fire service where officers are in the station waiting for the bell to ring - not intended as a slur on the water bobbies).
There is no burglary unit, robbery unit, proactive team, divisional tasking force, etc.
Each of those officers will have a workload of 15 or so investigations they're dealing with each with lines of enquiry to follow, statements to take, suspects to trace and interview (people often aren't arrested these days they're asked to attend for interview and arrested I they don't - remember kids you can go to jail without ever actually being arrested).

Going back to your trolly wallies, short of being there when they throw the trolly you're struggling. They'll tend not to throw them whilst someone is there, least of all someone with a pointy head and a bright yellow coat.
Which while a result in so far as you've preventes it you can't simply can't stand a cop every 300yds along the line.
Many years ago we ha an issue with arson in an area of 4 blocks of terraces. I ans a colleague spent 4 nights walking these blocks in random patterns, to our immense frustration three fires were lit (bushes, rubbish, empty house, cars etc). We eventually got someone but that came about by an unexpected route unconnected with the massive effort we put in.

CCTV is seen as a panacea, it's not. Even the most expensive CCTV is easily defeated by a 50p hat or hood. People know it so put their hood up and don't give a toss. It's often in the wrong position, to high or blown out by lights. It's use as a detection tool is limited to someone recognising the person on the cctv (facial features / distinctive features are needed not simply they're wearing the same addidas trackies and Nike Air Trainers that Billy La'scrote was wearing last week).

Forensics are not like on the TV, you need a decent smooth clean dry surface for a fingerprint assuming all the is present (most likely the handle of a trolly) a trolly handles will be handled by thousands of people and have thousands of prints. Those pulling it out from under the train will likely add some too, chuck in contamination and heat.

Fingerprints need, recovering and analysis, not something that happens in 30mins of the bill.

Fingerprints like DNA need the owner to be on the database, with young kids it's unlikely.

Crimestoppers and the likes can be a double edged sword. People have a tendency to phone up and say things like "Dave Smith did a burglary" or "John Brown is growing weed at his house, he has a blue car" which is lovely but pretty much useless, which dave Smith? which burglary? how is this known? etc etc.

Even if a name is given without something more to back it up there will be little chance of a successful prosecution.

I dare say the local force, drowning in its own incidents will simply say this is a BTP issue.

That was my point that unless the police catch these idiots in the act, or they're caught on CCTV, then it's going to be difficult. Assuming it's kids, well they probably won't be able to help boasting to their mates about it and loyalty is likely to go out of the window when there is a financial reward for grassing them up. Obviously that alone won't be enough to convict them but it lets the police know who they need to be keeping an eye on.

 

[TurbostarFan]

I'd be interested to see any examples of this.

Not least because the Police have no powers to put anyone in a jail cell.

However they can detain a suspect in a Police cell, I think that is what that person meant.

 

[ic31420]

Assuming it's kids, well they probably won't be able to help boasting to their mates about it and loyalty is likely to go out of the window when there is a financial reward for grassing them.

You'd think so, but nope my experience suggests the groups are tightly knit with a strong sense of loyalty to each other and a f the system attitude. Those on the periphery are generally too afraid.

 

[Dr_Paul]

This sort of hooliganism isn't that new, although it seems to have become a troublesome fad at the moment. My granny once told me about how her trip round to Kingston from Richmond had been delayed because someone had dropped a tin bath on the track and it had welded itself to the rails. This was over 50 years back, as I was only a kid at the time of her telling me. What struck even then as a bit odd is that she seemed to find the idea of a tin bath welded to the track as somewhat amusing.

Whilst we're on the topic of anti-social and dangerous behaviour by young lads, my granny also told me that when she was young her brother and his mates would lie down lengthways in the four-foot near Richmond and have a train go over the top of them. This, she added, was prior to the First World War and therefore would have been before the electrification of the Windsor line. I was a bit sceptical of this because of the obvious question of clearance beneath a loco and rolling stock; whether she actually saw this happen or believed a fanciful tale related by her brother I will never know as they are no longer around to explain.

 

[cjmillsnun]

After my previous posts, I've noticed that I don't remember hearing about an incident with a shopping trolley on the tracks in SWR-land, so that ruins my earlier theory!

I remember a long time ago I was on a 12 car (3 x 4CIG) near Portchester that got delayed because someone had left something on the track and it had ripped off most of the shoes down one side of the train. This is sadly nothing new. The train was eventually got moving again and limped to Fratton where it was taken out of service.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I used to think that the BTP should be disbanded, with their role handed to a railway division of the existing regional police forces... but in that case I think we all know which division of each force would bear the brunt of any funding cuts first, don't we?

 

[anme]

I used to think that the BTP should be disbanded, with their role handed to a railway division of the existing regional police forces... but in that case I think we all know which division of each force would bear the brunt of any funding cuts first, don't we?

Which one, and why?

 

[district]

I used to think that the BTP should be disbanded, with their role handed to a railway division of the existing regional police forces... but in that case I think we all know which division of each force would bear the brunt of any funding cuts first, don't we?

The TOCs pay for the BTP so there's nothing to say they wouldn't still be funding the railway division of the home office force (with a proviso of the funding only being used on the railway division).

 

[Journeyman]

Must have very serious mental health problems, hopefully they get the help they need before they kill someone

Nope, it's not "mental health problems", it's just plain stupidity. The two are absolutely not the same.

 

[anme]

Nope, it's not "mental health problems", it's just plain stupidity. The two are absolutely not the same.

Could it not be either?

 

[Journeyman]

Could it not be either?

Whilst mental health problems can lead people to do irrational and harmful things, this looks pretty obviously like petty crime. I object to using the term "mental health problems" in this context, as it can stigmatise people who have more than enough problems as it is.

 

[Esker-pades]

People with mental health problems are also capable of being utter and complete prats. Having one does not negate the other. Often it is far more beneficial to the person with such problems to point out that they are not behaving appropriately so that they don't make the same screw-up next time.

 

[Journeyman]

People with mental health problems are also capable of being utter and complete prats. Having one does not negate the other. Often it is far more beneficial to the person with such problems to point out that they are not behaving appropriately so that they don't make the same screw-up next time.

Totally agree, and it should be part of handling conditions such as autism, that can lead to anti-social behaviour. However, I'm sure you can understand the point I'm making - I know plenty of people who have severe mental health conditions that would never do anything like that, and it was an unhelpfully simplistic comment.

 

[Esker-pades]

Totally agree, and it should be part of handling conditions such as autism, that can lead to anti-social behaviour. However, I'm sure you can understand the point I'm making - I know plenty of people who have severe mental health conditions that would never do anything like that, and it was an unhelpfully simplistic comment.

Yes absolutely. My comment was more of an "in addition" rather than "response to" comment.

 

[Journeyman]

Yes absolutely. My comment was more of an "in addition" rather than "response to" comment.

Fair enough, I think we're both on the same page here. If you're old enough to remember the infamous Blue Peter Garden Incident, Percy Thrower accused those responsible for trashing it of being "mentally ill", but were more than likely just a bunch of dicks daring each other to do something stupid.