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Short notice APEX tickets : why do they have to include a seat reservation ?

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Justin Smith

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Short notice APEX tickets : why do they have to include a seat reservation ?

I know Cross Country trains short notice seat reservations have been discussed to death, but I was thinking about the problem just the other day. Most people agree that the possibility someone can reserve a seat after someone else has actually sat in it is unreasonable and a recipe for potential ill feeling and conflict. It`s also unfair that someone with a smart phone and knowledge of the system gets to go to the front of the queue for a seat. But that shouldn`t necessarily prevent train companies from selling cheaper ticket for services which aren`t that full. Why can`t the system just sell the passenger a ticket (whilst obviously noting down that a ticket has been sold for that train) but, once the train has left its first call, the ticket does not include a seat reservation ?
 
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Mojo

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I don't think they do; it's just something the Toc has presumably decided to do. Don't forget though that the Toc allows customers to book a "Ten Minute Reservation" so it isn't just short notice APs that involve chucking people out of seats!

Not booked short notice, but ARRIVA Trains Wales Advance tickets don't include an actual seat reservation, you just get a "counted place" reservation (ie. specifying your trains), so there is no reason for any kind of Advance tickets to have a reservation.
 

Taunton

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I guess the difficulty is selling a ticket which is only valid on one train, rather than any within a time limit, and then when the train comes it is full. I know this issue works both ways, but I guess their lawyers felt it was more likely to have a legal challenge if they restricted you to one train and then did not provide any accommodation for you. The ticket specifically excludes waiting for the next train in this situation.
 

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I just meant in the sense of an advance purchase non refundable non flexible ticket.

They’re only known by one name now: “Advance”.

As to the question, I expect the thinking is the seat reservation along with the low price encourages people to travel. Not sure that thinking is valid any more, as Advance tickets are no longer the preserve of the marginal traveller.
 

takno

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I don't think they do; it's just something the Toc has presumably decided to do. Don't forget though that the Toc allows customers to book a "Ten Minute Reservation" so it isn't just short notice APs that involve chucking people out of seats!

Not booked short notice, but ARRIVA Trains Wales Advance tickets don't include an actual seat reservation, you just get a "counted place" reservation (ie. specifying your trains), so there is no reason for any kind of Advance tickets to have a reservation.
My understanding was that the normal advance sales system explicitly required reservations and couldn't do simple quotas at all. It was one of the reasons why they are developing a replacement. I'm not sure if on-day-advance tickets use the same system at all though . I would guess that ATW manage because they don't have reservations at all. If you are in that situation you can just make up seat numbers and treat them like a quota. I could be quite wrong on this though - I've not done a huge amount of research into the ticket sales end of the business
 

Justin Smith

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I guess the difficulty is selling a ticket which is only valid on one train, rather than any within a time limit, and then when the train comes it is full. I know this issue works both ways, but I guess their lawyers felt it was more likely to have a legal challenge if they restricted you to one train and then did not provide any accommodation for you. The ticket specifically excludes waiting for the next train in this situation.

But that argument doesn`t stand up, pun intended.
What does full mean ?
The TOC knows how many tickets have been sold for that train, whether they`re for reserved seating or not is irrelevant. What the TOC does not know with any degree of certainty or accuracy, and that is the problem with short notice seat reservations, is how many people are actually travelling on the train. The argument that the train might be full (as in so full the passenger couldn`t even get on it) is flawed, because the only advantage of having a reserved seat in that instance is the ticket buyer would then feel they had the right to throw someone out of that seat and take it for themselves (they wouldn`t get far with me if I were in the seat with that one, but that`s a different argument). But, if the train was so full literally no passenger could get on it they`d have trouble even getting to that seat to try and remove the person already sat in it. And, even if they could get to it, how many people are going to say, "yes fine, I`ll give up a seat (which was unoccupied and un reserved at the time I sat in it) and get off the train and get the next one" ! Hardly anyone would agree to that, nor should they have to.
 

FQTV

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My understanding was that the normal advance sales system explicitly required reservations and couldn't do simple quotas at all. It was one of the reasons why they are developing a replacement. I'm not sure if on-day-advance tickets use the same system at all though . I would guess that ATW manage because they don't have reservations at all. If you are in that situation you can just make up seat numbers and treat them like a quota. I could be quite wrong on this though - I've not done a huge amount of research into the ticket sales end of the business

First Transpennine Express offers both specific seat reserved and also counted place Advance tickets. I don't know if there's some further underlying distinction between the two, however. I have only come across counted places on their Class 350 operated services.
 

Justin Smith

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My understanding was that the normal advance sales system explicitly required reservations and couldn't do simple quotas at all. It was one of the reasons why they are developing a replacement. I'm not sure if on-day-advance tickets use the same system at all though . I would guess that ATW manage because they don't have reservations at all. If you are in that situation you can just make up seat numbers and treat them like a quota. I could be quite wrong on this though - I've not done a huge amount of research into the ticket sales end of the business

The question is why ?
 

Bletchleyite

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My understanding was that the normal advance sales system explicitly required reservations and couldn't do simple quotas at all. It was one of the reasons why they are developing a replacement. I'm not sure if on-day-advance tickets use the same system at all though . I would guess that ATW manage because they don't have reservations at all. If you are in that situation you can just make up seat numbers and treat them like a quota. I could be quite wrong on this though - I've not done a huge amount of research into the ticket sales end of the business

Your understanding isn't correct, though it may be a hack. If you purchase an ATW Advance online you get a counted place, while if you purchase an Off Peak or Anytime you get a reservation.
 

Justin Smith

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But that argument doesn`t stand up, pun intended.
What does full mean ?
The TOC knows how many tickets have been sold for that train, whether they`re for reserved seating or not is irrelevant. What the TOC does not know with any degree of certainty or accuracy, and that is the problem with short notice seat reservations, is how many people are actually travelling on the train. The argument that the train might be full (as in so full the passenger couldn`t even get on it) is flawed, because the only advantage of having a reserved seat in that instance is the ticket buyer would then feel they had the right to throw someone out of that seat and take it for themselves (they wouldn`t get far with me if I were in the seat with that one, but that`s a different argument). But, if the train was so full literally no passenger could get on it they`d have trouble even getting to that seat to try and remove the person already sat in it. And, even if they could get to it, how many people are going to say, "yes fine, I`ll give up a seat (which was unoccupied and un reserved at the time I sat in it) and get off the train and get the next one" ! Hardly anyone would agree to that, nor should they have to.

Actually, if the train is full (either totally full or all the seats have been taken) you could argue, why is the train company selling cheap tickets for it ! The whole principle of the "Dynamic Pricing Model" is the tickets are only cheap when the demand is low !
 

Bletchleyite

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Actually, if the train is full (either totally full or all the seats have been taken) you could argue, why is the train company selling cheap tickets for it ! The whole principle of the "Dynamic Pricing Model" is the tickets are only cheap when the demand is low !

I've certainly argued that before - what ATW is doing is overselling deliberately, and that to me is not to be encouraged.

Ex-LM do that on the Trent Valleys as well. There's really not much of a case for having Advances on those trains at all; the walk-ups will sell most of them in excess of seating capacity while they remain 4-car.
 

Mojo

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I would guess that ATW manage because they don't have reservations at all. If you are in that situation you can just make up seat numbers and treat them like a quota.
ATW do offer reservations on many of their trains. If when buying a walkon ticket in advance of travel online and you select a train, you will get a seat reservation, but you will not if buying an Advance. The ATW website does say that you can however contact them and make a reservation with an AP.
 

takno

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The question is why ?
Because it was built about 20 years ago largely before internet sales and long before on-the-day purchasing. Reservation levels were generally lower and the station staff were able to set people up with the seats they actually wanted.

I'd say up to a third of reserved seats on busy trains now don't get taken up, either because the purchaser didn't show, they were booked by someone on an open ticket who caught a different train, or the purchaser chose to sit in a different seat which was more to their liking. Forcing someone to reserve a specific seat they aren't then going to use just makes the problem worse
 

Justin Smith

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Because it was built about 20 years ago largely before internet sales and long before on-the-day purchasing. Reservation levels were generally lower and the station staff were able to set people up with the seats they actually wanted.

I'd say up to a third of reserved seats on busy trains now don't get taken up, either because the purchaser didn't show, they were booked by someone on an open ticket who caught a different train, or the purchaser chose to sit in a different seat which was more to their liking. Forcing someone to reserve a specific seat they aren't then going to use just makes the problem worse

I agree with you, and, in fact, am arguing for less seat reservations, indeed none at all for short notice tickets. As has been frequently said, the principle of a short notice advance ticket may be sound, but not the seat reservation.
 

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I agree with you, and, in fact, am arguing for less seat reservations, indeed none at all for short notice tickets. As has been frequently said, the principle of a short notice advance ticket may be sound, but not the seat reservation.

I'd rather see it go the other way. Stop putting reservations out, but instead have marked reserved and unreserved coaches/areas. Then make it really easy for anyone, a walk-up buyer included, even if already holding a ticket, to select a reservation from the seating plan, either as soon as they decide or when they get to the station.

Bye bye Euston scrum (and equivalents) while not losing flexibility in the way you would if you went compulsory reservation.
 

Justin Smith

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I'd rather see it go the other way. Stop putting reservations out, but instead have marked reserved and unreserved coaches/areas. Then make it really easy for anyone, a walk-up buyer included, even if already holding a ticket, to select a reservation from the seating plan, either as soon as they decide or when they get to the station.

Bye bye Euston scrum (and equivalents) while not losing flexibility in the way you would if you went compulsory reservation.

Where would they be able to do that ? Remember not everyone has (or wants) a smart phone, or they may have one but its U/S. What I wouldn`t approve of is yet another system which benefits people who have smart phones against those who do not (or who don`t know how to use the system)
 

Bletchleyite

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Where would they be able to do that ? Remember not everyone has (or wants) a smart phone, or they may have one but its U/S. What I wouldn`t approve of is yet another system which benefits people who have smart phones against those who do not (or who don`t know how to use the system)

A TVM or the ticket office (as well as all the online sales channels). Or on boarding ask the guard/buffet steward.
 

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Where would they be able to do that ? Remember not everyone has (or wants) a smart phone, or they may have one but its U/S. What I wouldn`t approve of is yet another system which benefits people who have smart phones against those who do not (or who don`t know how to use the system)

Or on the other side, given those who own a smart phone is now in the majority, why shouldn't they get a benefit just because the minority refuse to move forward?
 

Justin Smith

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Or on the other side, given those who own a smart phone is now in the majority, why shouldn't they get a benefit just because the minority refuse to move forward?

Because the railways are a tax payer subsidised public service, which should allow equal access and benefit to all, it`s not a private company open to full competition which is entitled to pick its market. A bit like why it costs an absolute fortune to open a station these days because there has to be ramped access to both platforms. I actually think the latter is going too far in many cases, not because I don`t think those in wheelchairs (or with push chairs) shouldn`t have full access, but because I think in most cases a barrow crossing is not only easier to use but is perfectly safe. In fact using a barrow crossing over almost all railways is probably safer than crossing the average road.
 
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Haywain

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First Transpennine Express offers both specific seat reserved and also counted place Advance tickets. I don't know if there's some further underlying distinction between the two, however. I have only come across counted places on their Class 350 operated services.
The difference is when they are purchased, I believe. Bought ahead of the date of travel they will have a 'proper' reservation and bought on the day they will have a counted place reservation.

All need to go through NRS to allow control over numbers sold but I understand that different parts of the train can be closed for reservations at different times (VTEC do this to allow cycle reservations up to departure time). So it will be possible to allow Advance on the day to be allocated to counted places (in effect a mythical coach) with a separate quota, but to achieve this they must be a separate ticket type and quota to those available in advance.
 

Justin Smith

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The difference is when they are purchased, I believe. Bought ahead of the date of travel they will have a 'proper' reservation and bought on the day they will have a counted place reservation.

All need to go through NRS to allow control over numbers sold but I understand that different parts of the train can be closed for reservations at different times (VTEC do this to allow cycle reservations up to departure time). So it will be possible to allow Advance on the day to be allocated to counted places (in effect a mythical coach) with a separate quota, but to achieve this they must be a separate ticket type and quota to those available in advance.

That seems the obvious way to do it. I can`t think why XC invited all these problems on themselves by giving a reservation for a seat which may well already be taken......
 

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The difference is when they are purchased, I believe. Bought ahead of the date of travel they will have a 'proper' reservation and bought on the day they will have a counted place reservation.

All need to go through NRS to allow control over numbers sold but I understand that different parts of the train can be closed for reservations at different times (VTEC do this to allow cycle reservations up to departure time). So it will be possible to allow Advance on the day to be allocated to counted places (in effect a mythical coach) with a separate quota, but to achieve this they must be a separate ticket type and quota to those available in advance.

Counted places are issued in advance on Transpennine Express, as well as on-the-day. Time of booking can't be the differentiator in this case.
 

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There is definitely a case for ex LM offering Advances on the Trent Valley services. It takes competition away from Virgin and ex LM get 100% of the revenue. The customer benefits through lower fares so both sides happy.
 

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There is definitely a case for ex LM offering Advances on the Trent Valley services. It takes competition away from Virgin and ex LM get 100% of the revenue. The customer benefits through lower fares so both sides happy.

Not when it is causing overcrowding. Once it can be 8 or 12-car, they should start selling them then.
 

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Not when it is causing overcrowding. Once it can be 8 or 12-car, they should start selling them then.
I didn't see you making this complaint about the recently introduced TPE Only walk-up fares for horrifically overcrowded TransPennine services from Manchester to Wigan in the afternoon (especially the 1600 and 1800 from Manchester Airport). Especially if you are coming back, a return is £5.50 rather than £9.60 - but only if you stick to the most overcrowded trains.
 

Bletchleyite

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I didn't see you making this complaint about the recently introduced TPE Only walk-up fares for horrifically overcrowded TransPennine services from Manchester to Wigan in the afternoon (especially the 1600 and 1800 from Manchester Airport). Especially if you are coming back, a return is £5.50 rather than £9.60 - but only if you stick to the most overcrowded trains.

Largely because I have no idea about how overcrowded those services are or are not. If that is causing a problem, they need evening peak restrictions adding.
 

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Isn't it a touch counteractive to introduce a cheaper fare and then make it more expensive? In any case, restrictions wouldn't alleviate the overcrowding at weekends or on Friday nights. And there's also a TransPennine only season ticket...
 

Mathew S

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I didn't see you making this complaint about the recently introduced TPE Only walk-up fares for horrifically overcrowded TransPennine services from Manchester to Wigan in the afternoon (especially the 1600 and 1800 from Manchester Airport). Especially if you are coming back, a return is £5.50 rather than £9.60 - but only if you stick to the most overcrowded trains.
Where are those fares available? I can't find them on brfares.com and I've never seen one when buying that journey (at least once a week for the last year, almost always on the TP services).
 
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