Short return (SHR)

[island]

I heard a rumour that in the next NFM Arriva Northern will be removing anytime returns (SOR) from a number of flows and introducing a new ticket type called "short return" (SHR) instead with the outbound half valid only on the day of issue instead of for five days. Anyone know anything about this?

[insert simple bricks]

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's an Anytime Short Return, I forget the code.

The difference from the SOR is that the outward portion is valid until 0430 on the day following the date on the ticket rather than for five days. The return half validity is the same as the SVR.

It's basically to prevent people using SORs as season tickets in the context of poor revenue protection. You could still use two in opposite directions in that way (using the return halves once the outwards have been used) but at least they then get twice the money.

It's basically the same reason, I expect, why BR used unrestricted SVRs rather than SORs for these flows.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Next NFM? This one more like! See the thread I started a few days ago -

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=135123

Seems to me like the TOCs got this new ticket type introduced on a lie that it would be beneficial to passengers by offering "Its addition to the existing ticket range aims to give customers increased choice by offering a period Anytime return for use in the peak on short distance flows where traditionally only a Day ticket was available. This then provides both period options for Peak and Off Peak Travel."

Now Northern are introducing SHRs, not as an addition, but in place of already existing SORs. No benefit to the passenger whatsoever. Detrimental to the passenger in fact due to the significantly reduced outward validity period. Would Transport Focus be interested in a complaint?

 

[John @ home]

I heard a rumour that in the next NFM Arriva Northern will be removing anytime returns (SOR) from a number of flows and introducing a new ticket type called "short return" (SHR) instead with the outbound half valid only on the day of issue instead of for five days.

This has already happened.

For example, last week Northern's £13.90 Standard Anytime Return (SOR) Leeds - Sheffield route Not Via Doncaster was vaild outward for five days and for one month on the return leg. Following the introduction of NFM25, this week Northern's £13.90 Standard Anytime Short Return (SHR) Leeds - Sheffield route Not Via Doncaster is vaild outward for one day and for one month on the return leg.

See also the discussion in the recent Anytime Short Returns thread.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I wouldn't call journeys like Liverpool to Morecambe, Liverpool to Colne, or Leeds to Carlisle via Appleby, "short" and think that is acceptable that passengers should now no longer be able to make an overnight break-of-journey on their outward journey.

 

[bb21]

It's basically to prevent people using SORs as season tickets in the context of poor revenue protection. You could still use two in opposite directions in that way (using the return halves once the outwards have been used) but at least they then get twice the money.

Indeed. The "revenue protection issue" isn't really due to the length of the outward portion, but the return portion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. The "revenue protection issue" isn't really due to the length of the outward portion, but the return portion.

It's a risk management thing. As the point of break-even on a weekly season vs. 5 S*Rs tends to be around 3 S*Rs, if the cheat pays 2 x S*R for their week or so before they get gripped, the railway hasn't lost a lot.

I'd once again suggest compostage as an effective answer to this. Once stamped, your ticket would be valid on the day of stamping only, or perhaps two days for long distance tickets e.g. >100 miles. You could then give tickets a very long validity if desired - such as all single fares valid one month.

 

[Starmill]

IMO this doesn't reduce the risk at all. A savvy fare evader would not commence the outward portion from the origin station after day one was over, especially not for the length of journeys these are, typically up to 2-3 hours at most. It looks very suspicious. Particularly if the ticket was issued the previous morning!

 

[kieron]

I wouldn't call journeys like Liverpool to Morecambe, Liverpool to Colne, or Leeds to Carlisle via Appleby, "short" and think that is acceptable that passengers should now no longer be able to make an overnight break-of-journey on their outward journey.

It does make things less pleasant, but they're only changing fares to mirror those of other companies who set fares on similar routes who all seem to set off-peak fares of some sort on any "longer" routes they price. These are a mixture of tickets with time restrictions, tickets with break of journey restrictions and tickets with no restrictions at all, but none of them have the longer validity period.

As Northern are unlikely to suffer a material loss from this, I'm sure they're happy to help the government with its consistency drive.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It looks very suspicious. Particularly if the ticket was issued the previous morning!

It looks very suspicious, but if you have two pristine tickets that have neither been gripped nor put through a barrier there is no way of knowing they are not valid.

The solution, of course, is to ensure tickets are gripped, but that will cost Arriva money.

Back before "simplification" these tickets were SVR, with this validity, it's just that with "simplification" most SVRs in Northern-land became the new Anytime Return. It's hard to argue it is a material loss to the passenger, even if one doesn't agree with it.

 

[island]

If this is a revenue protection/reducing reuse of period return thing, then what they need to look at is something Irish Rail used to do – a five day return, the outbound half valid only on day of issue and the return journey to be taken within five days.

Punctilious punching of tickets and retaining of used tickets at the destination would also help.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If this is a revenue protection/reducing reuse of period return thing, then what they need to look at is something Irish Rail used to do – a five day return, the outbound half valid only on day of issue and the return journey to be taken within five days.

The Network Awaybreak, then?

Those were all turned into SVRs and haven't been turned back or removed, so I guess fraud from SVR is at acceptable levels.

Just abolish returns; singles valid one day (to 0430) up to 100 miles, 2 days above, unlimited break of journey within that limit. For >100 mile journeys a double use is highly unlikely. Want a return? Buy two singles. Don't know when you're coming back to a 2 day resolution? Buy when you do know or on the day.

 

[Clip]

The Network Awaybreak, then?

Those were all turned into SVRs and haven't been turned back or removed, so I guess fraud from SVR is at acceptable levels.

Just abolish returns; singles valid one day (to 0430) up to 100 miles, 2 days above, unlimited break of journey within that limit. For >100 mile journeys a double use is highly unlikely. Want a return? Buy two singles. Don't know when you're coming back to a 2 day resolution? Buy when you do know or on the day.

Thats just making things even more complicated

 

[lyndhurst25]

It does make things less pleasant, but they're only changing fares to mirror those of other companies who set fares on similar routes who all seem to set off-peak fares of some sort on any "longer" routes they price. These are a mixture of tickets with time restrictions, tickets with break of journey restrictions and tickets with no restrictions at all, but none of them have the longer validity period.

As Northern are unlikely to suffer a material loss from this, I'm sure they're happy to help the government with its consistency drive.

But the off-peak tickets do have a longer validity period: two days outbound, compared to only one day on these new SHR short returns.

This change is already causing me problems. I need to buy a Liverpool to Colne return. Depending on how my day pans out, I might make the last train of the day but it will be a mad rush and I don't want to be wasting time by queueing at the station to buy the ticket. If I miss the last train of the day then I will have to travel first thing in the morning. Now I have plenty of time to buy my ticket in advance this afternoon and prior to the SOR to SHR change I could have done exactly that, knowing that my ticket would be valid for travel either today or tomorrow. Now I can't risk buying a SHR that expires at midnight.

I know this example is a bit of an unusual problem, but a company introducing inconvenient new ticket restrictions just because they can't get round to stamping tickets to show that they've been used, isn't on.

As I've also said, having less validity on the outward portion of a more expensive Anytime (SHR - 1 day) compared to an Off-Peak (SVR - 2 days) ticket seems crazy. Newcastle to Berwick is an example of this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

An SVR doesn't truly have two days of validity, it just allows an overnight break of journey if, at the option of the passenger, it is not feasible to complete on day one. I would argue that clearly does not constitute starting from the origin on day two.

Whoever is going to be travelling Newcastle to Berwick with an overnight break of journey? I doubt many will be affected by that.

By the way, not that it's any use here but for completeness, tickets do not expire at midnight, they expire at 0430 the following morning. That applies to all ATOC/RSP tickets (not some PTE ones).

 

[MikeWh]

Just abolish returns; singles valid one day (to 0430) up to 100 miles, 2 days above, unlimited break of journey within that limit. For >100 mile journeys a double use is highly unlikely. Want a return? Buy two singles. Don't know when you're coming back to a 2 day resolution? Buy when you do know or on the day.

And tough luck if you wanted to spend a week somewhere in the middle of the return, eh?

 

[Merseysider]

The Network Awaybreak, then?

Those were all turned into SVRs and haven't been turned back or removed, so I guess fraud from SVR is at acceptable levels.

Just abolish returns; singles valid one day (to 0430) up to 100 miles, 2 days above, unlimited break of journey within that limit. For >100 mile journeys a double use is highly unlikely. Want a return? Buy two singles. Don't know when you're coming back to a 2 day resolution? Buy when you do know or on the day.

As these changes would be rather restrictive, inconvenient and retrograde, what do you propose the customer gets in return?

 

[kieron]

But the off-peak tickets do have a longer validity period: two days outbound, compared to only one day on these new SHR short returns.

Sorry; I hadn't actually read the terms.
In your position, I'd get in touch with everyone relevant (Northern, DfT, your MP) about your problem, and more generally about the difficulty caused by using SHR tickets to routes with a much lower service frequency than the small East Coast trial had.

If you can get something in writing to confirm you can travel the next morning, it would deal with the immediate issue.

As these changes would be rather restrictive, inconvenient and retrograde, what do you propose the customer gets in return?

This being the north, I suspect the answer is "scorn".
The distance requirements would have nothing to do with the ones Neil suggested, of course, if the people doing it have any sense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And tough luck if you wanted to spend a week somewhere in the middle of the return, eh?

Buy three singles if you want to do that. With single-fare pricing there would not be a substantial financial disadvantage to doing so, if any. Possibly, as splits sometimes make travel cheaper, it might actually save you money over a through journey on a non-stop train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As these changes would be rather restrictive, inconvenient and retrograde, what do you propose the customer gets in return?

Not being ripped off when they make single or three-leg journeys, for one, or if they wish to make a return journey with more than a month between the two halves.

 

[Merseysider]

Buy three singles if you want to do that. With single-fare pricing there would not be a substantial financial disadvantage to doing so, if any. Possibly, as splits sometimes make travel cheaper, it might actually save you money over a through journey on a non-stop train.

Currently, an Off Peak return from Manchester to Birkenhead costs £10.50. If I want to spend a few days in Warrington on the return, to see a friend, I can do that at no extra cost.

Under your proposal this would cost £20+. There's no way TPE or Northern would make the commercially suicidal decision to lower the individual day single fares for Manchester - Birkenhead, Birkenhead - Warrington and Warrington - Manchester to a combined total of a tenner for flexible tickets.

It works in Germany because fares are already so bloody cheap. But other than in a few select areas such as Merseyrail, it'd take a lot of flexibility away from the customer and be a rather one sided move.

 

[Starmill]

I was just about to say what JakeF said. Neil likes to propose single fare pricing, but it's just not viable where that single fare comes out at such a high cost per mile. We should be aiming for all journeys to cost less, at the very least for the case of the lone traveller, by rail than in the average car. We just aren't even aiming for that and I can't see how this would help. Even if it's only very slightly less by rail than in your car would do it - although of course in many countries it would be a lot less.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Currently, an Off Peak return from Manchester to Birkenhead costs £10.50. If I want to spend a few days in Warrington on the return, to see a friend, I can do that at no extra cost.

Under your proposal this would cost £20+. There's no way TPE or Northern would make the commercially suicidal decision to lower the individual day single fares for Manchester - Birkenhead, Birkenhead - Warrington and Warrington - Manchester to a combined total of a tenner for flexible tickets.

They will if they are required to do so. And it's looking increasingly like that requirement is coming from DfT.

To make it revenue neutral I would expect the singles to be priced around £6.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Isn't Short relating to the validity of the outward leg rather then the length of the journey


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[Merseysider]

Isn't Short relating to the validity of the outward leg rather then the length of the journey


Sent from [snip]

Nope.

 

[Wallsendmag]

That's strange I could have sworn that's what it stood for , the other options weren't as transferable to other TOCs. But it was 18 months or so ago so I could be wrong


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[lyndhurst25]

Looking into the history of the fares that I originally mentioned (Liverpool to Colne, Liverpool to Lancaster) it seems that Northen changed them from 8A restricted SVRs to SORs in 2008.

http://www.farehistory.info/history/Liv/Cne/


So we have gone from -

Pre-2008 (8A SVR) - no time restrictions, no outward BoJ, one day outward validity with travel allowed on day after if journey "cannot" be completed, return within one month.

2008-2016 (SOR) - no time restrictions, no BoJ restrictions, 5 day outward validity, return within one month.

2016 on (SHR) - no time restrictions, no BoJ restrictions, strict one day outward validity, return within one month.

What old Northern giveth, new Northern taketh away!

If they are so worried about ticket reuse then perhaps a compromise would have been to convert the SORs to 2T SVRs, rather than abusing the new SHRs which were supposedly introduced to offer "increased choice by offering a period Anytime return for use in the peak on short distance flows where traditionally only a Day ticket was available"? 2T SVRs would allow - no time restrictions, no BoJ restrictions, one day outward validity with travel allowed on day after if journey "cannot" be completed, return within one month.