"Short starting" on an off-peak ticket

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ABB125

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Evesham to Didcot Parkway off-peak return has a list of times after which you can depart from each station along the route:
  • Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before the times shown from the following stations:
  • 06:59 from Hereford
  • 07:05 from Ledbury
  • 08:00 from Colwall
  • 07:30 from Great Malvern
  • 07:35 Malvern Link
  • 08:10* from Worcester Foregate Street
  • 08:15* from Worcester Shrub Hill
  • 08:30* from Worcestershire Parkway
  • 08:30* from Pershore
  • 08:45* from Evesham
  • 08:50* from Honeybourne
  • 08:45* from Moreton-in-Marsh
  • 08:45* from Kingham
  • 08:45* from Shipton
  • 08:45* from Ascott-under-Wychwood
  • 09:00* from Charlbury
  • 09:00* from Finstock
  • 09:00* from Combe (Oxfordshire)
  • 09:05* from Hanborough
This is good because it clearly states that, for example, if I wanted to start my journey at Hanborough instead of Evesham I can't take any train before 0905, 20 minutes later than if I was departing from Evesham.

The off-peak day return for the same journey simply states:
Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 08:30.
So does this mean that I could take any train from Hanborough after 0830, even though I wouldn't necessarily be permitted to catch that train if I boarded at Evesham? For example, the 0643 Hereford to Paddington calls at Evesham at 0752, and Hanborough at 0835: I could board this at Hanborough with an Evesham to Didcot off-peak day return, but not at Evesham?

Alternatively, Swindon to Bromsgrove off-peak day return is valid after 0744 (!); could I use this to travel on the 0824 from Worcester Foregate Street to Bromsgrove*, when clearly there's no way I could get from Swindon to Worcester in time for the 0824?

Thanks :)

*Thought obviously, if I were to do this journey, I'd buy a Worcester to Bromsgrove ticket as it's much cheaper! I've used this merely as an illustrative example.
 
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Provided there is no break of journey restriction on the fare, and that the restrictions are worded a generic "not valid before xxxx" as opposed to barring specific trains you intend to use then I see no reason why it would not be permitted. There is no requirement to use the ticket in full.
 

ABB125

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Provided there is no break of journey restriction on the fare, and that the restrictions are worded a generic "not valid before xxxx" as opposed to barring specific trains you intend to use then I see no reason why it would not be permitted. There is no requirement to use the ticket in full.
That's what I thought; the issue I'm thinking of is if I discover some loophole ticket that means starting significantly short of the origin in order to save money of the journey I actually want to do, and the reaction by staff members. If (made up numbers alert!) Bristol to Manchester off-peak is valid after 0700, and is cheaper than a Birmingham to Manchester off-peak ticket which is valid after 0930, the obvious thing to do would be to buy the Bristol ticket, but start at Birmingham. However, staff might not be very happy that I'm using an off-peak ticket on the 0700 (or whatever) from New Street, especially as (theoretically) I'd have needed to start in Bristol at around 0530 in order to reach Birmingham in time (and 0530 is prior to the start of validity of the ticket).

Apologies it that was a bit confusing! Basically, the question is "will staff generally accept tickets starting (significantly) short right on the limit of their validity?"
 
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35B

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Evesham to Didcot Parkway off-peak return has a list of times after which you can depart from each station along the route:

This is good because it clearly states that, for example, if I wanted to start my journey at Hanborough instead of Evesham I can't take any train before 0905, 20 minutes later than if I was departing from Evesham.

The off-peak day return for the same journey simply states:

So does this mean that I could take any train from Hanborough after 0830, even though I wouldn't necessarily be permitted to catch that train if I boarded at Evesham? For example, the 0643 Hereford to Paddington calls at Evesham at 0752, and Hanborough at 0835: I could board this at Hanborough with an Evesham to Didcot off-peak day return, but not at Evesham?

Alternatively, Swindon to Bromsgrove off-peak day return is valid after 0744 (!); could I use this to travel on the 0824 from Worcester Foregate Street to Bromsgrove*, when clearly there's no way I could get from Swindon to Worcester in time for the 0824?

Thanks :)

*Thought obviously, if I were to do this journey, I'd buy a Worcester to Bromsgrove ticket as it's much cheaper! I've used this merely as an illustrative example.
At that point, wouldn't the validity be determined by the named starting point on the ticket, not the actual joining point?
 

Bletchleyite

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At that point, wouldn't the validity be determined by the named starting point on the ticket, not the actual joining point?

No, restrictions are generally based on joining each train you use. Though depending on their wording it can relate to somewhere else, e.g. if you have a Euston-Brum ticket and board at MKC, a restriction worded "not valid on trains leaving London Euston between 1700 and 1900" would still apply as written.

There are actually some on longer distance journeys that say "when you have broken overnight, a different restriction applies".

(Note: this is not a real example and the restrictions from MKC are not quite like that)
 

Skymonster

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So does this mean that I could take any train from Hanborough after 0830, even though I wouldn't necessarily be permitted to catch that train if I boarded at Evesham? For example, the 0643 Hereford to Paddington calls at Evesham at 0752, and Hanborough at 0835: I could board this at Hanborough with an Evesham to Didcot off-peak day return, but not at Evesham?
So how do you convince anyone doing a ticket check after Hanborough that you actually boarded at Hanborough and not at Evesham?
 

Bletchleyite

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So how do you convince anyone doing a ticket check after Hanborough that you actually boarded at Hanborough and not at Evesham?

That's fairly difficult. If you are going to do something like that, it may well be in your interests to approach the guard (if there is one) when you join and tell them what you are doing, so when they come and check they have seen where you boarded already.
 

ABB125

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At that point, wouldn't the validity be determined by the named starting point on the ticket, not the actual joining point?
I don't think so. But I'm not quite sure, hence this thread.
So how do you convince anyone doing a ticket check after Hanborough that you actually boarded at Hanborough and not at Evesham?
Good point - I didn't think of that!
That's fairly difficult. If you are going to do something like that, it may well be in your interests to approach the guard (if there is one) when you join and tell them what you are doing, so when they come and check they have seen where you boarded already.
That's probably what I'd do in this case (boarding the same train, but later). It's probably easier to "get away with it" if you're starting at a station where you'd either have to change anyway, or could change if you so wished. For example, at Oxford using the above ticket, boarding an XC train, which obviously you couldn't've boarded at Evesham.
 

miami

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So how do you convince anyone doing a ticket check after Hanborough that you actually boarded at Hanborough and not at Evesham?

Isn't it the responsibiliy of the railway to prove you travelled without a valid ticket? Unless they have proof you started your journey before 0830 then surely they can't claim you've committed an offence
 

island

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Isn't it the responsibiliy of the railway to prove you travelled without a valid ticket? Unless they have proof you started your journey before 0830 then surely they can't claim you've committed an offence
Yes – but they can certainly make things difficult and tiresome for people whom they believe to have breached the rules.
 
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