Short_Ticket

[011976091]

My daughter was stopped this week using a 'short-ticket. She entered the origin two stops away from London to save some money. She has done this four times. She confessed and owned up to the detaining officer at the southern barrier and admitted she intentionally tried to avoid the fares. At least she was honest about that. The officer told here one of four things could happen:
1) A don't do it again letter - this was not likey
2) A penalty fare
3) An investigation with costs, penalty fares and compensation
4) A prosecution

Apparently he told her they would seek to recover cost and would not want to ruin her life by protection. She is beside herself with guilt and worry. A conviction would result in her losing her job in the NHS. She had no idea of the potential consequence (nor did I until I started reading). We are awaiting a letter from the train company. Does anyone know how long this will take and, how likely option 4 - prosecution is? Is it worth trying to speak to the rail company before getting a fine or prosecution notice? Unfortunately, she did not ask for any reference number and has no details of who she spoke to.

Thank you.

 

[MikeWh]

More knowledgeable people will be along later, but if he didn't issue option 2 at the time then that is no longer an option now. My understanding is that for a first detection of an offence they are likely to go for option 3 which would result in an out-of-court settlement. Admitting to 3 other offences may cloud the matter, but if they think that is genuinely all she's done and she expresses remorse, understanding that she was wrong, and promises not to do it again then I don't see why they wouldn't go for that. Option 1 is extremely unlikely so can realistically be ignored.

 

[30907]

Just to add - if your daughter's job in the NHS is of a nature that a conviction for travelling without a valid ticket or even fare evasion would be grounds for dismissal she should get advice from her union or professional association.
This isn't all that likely a scenario, though it is regularly raised on here, and ISTR the relevant professional bodies have issued guidance.

 

[011976091]

Just to add - if your daughter's job in the NHS is of a nature that a conviction for travelling without a valid ticket or even fare evasion would be grounds for dismissal she should get advice from her union or professional association.
This isn't all that likely a scenario, though it is regularly raised on here, and ISTR the relevant professional bodies have issued guidance.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Yes you should, find out as much as possible as soon as possible, anonymously, you can do her a big service and advise her
Search these fora for similar cases too

 

[Hadders]

It is highly likely that the train company, or a company acting on their behalf such as Transport Investigations Limited, will write to your daughter saying that they believe they have sufficient evidence to prosecute but asking for your version of events. This letter could take several weeks to arrive.

When the letter arrives it is important that you reply and engage with them. I suggest you write a short, concise reply, don’t give a long rambling sob story - they will have heard it all before. In your reply you might want to mention:

Your remorse
What you have learned from the incident
You are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action. You might want to offer to pay the train company’s administrative costs in dealing with the case plus the outstanding fare.

Most companies will generally offer an out of court settlement on the first occasion someone comes to their attention. The amounts vary but generally are around £100-150.

My view is it is highly unlikely that your daughter will lose her job with the NHS over a railway ticketing matter. The important thing is to check what she is required to do by checking her contract of employment or asking her Union. She won’t be the first or last person to be in a similar position.

Until the letter from the train company arrives there isn’t much you can do. Try to put it to the back of your mind until then (easier said than done).

There are many similar cases on this forum and you might want to have a read of them. Do feel free to let us know when the letter from the train company arrives, members will be happy to assist in proof reading your reply etc.

 

[MotCO]

My view is it is highly unlikely that your daughter will lose her job with the NHS over a railway ticketing matter. The important thing is to check what she is required to do by checking her contract of employment or asking her Union. She won’t be the first or last person to be in a similar position.

The key thing is, if your daughter's employer asks to be informed of any offences, that she must declare them. It is far worse to hide them and hope you don't get found out, than to be open snd honest with them.

Secondly, it is probably helpful to write down the facts of the incident now while it is still fresh in your mind. Try to remember who said what , the details of the journeys etc. This will make your response to the train company,
when asked, much easier.

 

[011976091]

Thank you for the advice. We don’t have much money but £150 is doable. We have both read a lot on the fora but each case is presented differently. To be honest it’s a wonder anyone travels on the trains given all the pitfalls of lost tickets, missed stations, wrong fares etc.

some suggest engaging a solicitor is a good idea. Is it at this stage?

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for the advice. We don’t have much money but £150 is doable. We have both read a lot on the fora but each case is presented differently. To be honest it’s a wonder anyone travels on the trains given all the pitfalls of lost tickets, missed stations, wrong fares etc.

some suggest engaging a solicitor is a good idea. Is it at this stage?

No, don't bother with solicitor at this stage, at least wait till she gets the formal letter, then come back here for advice on what to say in mitigation. Then you can decide if solicitor worthwhile. Union may provide some legal help fr free anyway, even for non work stuff - what union is she in? In none, join one soonish!

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Union may provide some legal help fr free anyway, even for non work stuff - what union is she in? In none, join one soonish!

Before doing this make sure the union will advise on issues arising prior to joining. I’m a union rep and just had to tell a new member l cannot advise on matters arising before they joined.

 

[MotCO]

No, don't bother with solicitor at this stage, at least wait till she gets the formal letter, then come back here for advice on what to say in mitigation. Then you can decide if solicitor worthwhile. Union may provide some legal help fr free anyway, even for non work stuff - what union is she in? In none, join one soonish!

Some house insurance also includes legal cover.

 

[Hadders]

I don’t think a solicitor is needed at this stage. I think the best thing you can do at the moment is to try and stop worrying, wait for the letter to arrive and try to put some money aside to be able to pay a potential penalty.

 

[011976091]

Thank you again. I will hope that despite the fact she has no defence, the rail company will not want to ruin her prospects because she was foolish. I will report back with news of what happens.

 

[Brissle Girl]

To be honest it’s a wonder anyone travels on the trains given all the pitfalls of lost tickets, missed stations, wrong fares etc.

Yes, the forum is able to help a lot of people who find themselves in difficult situations without having had any intent to avoid the correct fare. Although as you've made clear, that isn't the situation we're looking at here.

To clarify one point made above, if your daughter's employer or professional body asks to be told about any offences then your daughter must of course do so, but do check the wording of any obligation carefully to ensure that they are told only at the appropriate moment, if at all. I would imagine it would only be if your daughter has been successfully prosecuted. Any out of court settlement would probably not count.

 

[SteveM70]

The one thing I’d add to the excellent advice already offered is to make sure your daughter’s statement that this is something she’s done four times is true. If she’s understating the number of times, now’s the time to be honest

 

[Nottingham59]

Two more thoughts which might help:
1. If your daughter changes her address is the next few months, it is essential she makes arrangements for mail to be forwarded
2. Was she given any paperwork at the barrier when she was stopped? If so, what did it say?

 

[WesternLancer]

Before doing this make sure the union will advise on issues arising prior to joining. I’m a union rep and just had to tell a new member l cannot advise on matters arising before they joined.

Very fair point, tho a good plan for help when the next problem turns up - their always is one...

 

[011976091]

She was given nothing at the barrier. Not even a reference or the company.

 

[WesternLancer]

She was given nothing at the barrier. Not even a reference or the company.


Thank you. I have been through her bank and credit card statements with her this morning. It would appear the fare matching the short ticket was purchased 3 times and not 4.

are you able to give an idea of the total sum evaded? People may be able to proffer a view on whether that is more likely to result in court or out of court settlement (tho it seems hard to tell sometimes which way train companies will go) - also what train company are we talking about (or route involved if you or she is not sure)?

Feel free not to state if you would rather not post that of course.

 

[011976091]

It’s about £30 in total. £10 per ticket. She knowingly bought the ticket though was unaware of the consequences.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I posted a true account of what she told me. I need advice on the real situation. It would not benefit her for me to get advice half truths or concealed facts. She has been foolish and is guilty. It’s that simple.

And that is very helpful, both for us, and for her in the sense that we are better able to help.

We do occasionally see instances where, in trying to establish the facts to ensure we give the best advice, it becomes clear that the poster is, using the most charitable interpretation, not telling us the whole story. There are two issues with that as far as the poster is concerned. Firstly, we're less able to help if we haven't got the whole picture. But moreover, if we can sense that we're not getting an accurate reflection on the circumstances when we get into the detail, it's highly likely that the investigators will too, which will somewhat dilute any messages of remorse etc which they are getting at the same time.

So it's appreciated when someone is very open, and holds their hands up, in the way you have done on behalf of your daughter. Personally, I'm much more likely to believe that they have learned their lesson when someone is very straight about the situation they find themselves in.

 

[WesternLancer]

It’s about £30 in total. £10 per ticket. She knowingly bought the ticket though was unaware of the consequences.

Just to add it’s on the Guildford Waterloo line. But she was stopped at Victoria.


I posted a true account of what she told me. I need advice on the real situation. It would not benefit her for me to get advice half truths or concealed facts. She has been foolish and is guilty. It’s that simple.

I suspect the relatively low sum involved increases the chance of an out of court settlement, but of course that can't be guaranteed, given the evasion was intentional.
Post #2 suggests the approach to go for. She will need to wait for the formal letter from the railway now I guess, to see what they say about things. That will probably come in the next few weeks, but could take up to 6 months. Be sure to watch for post etc. Hopefully they have the correct address for her and took it down accurately. Staff can seem to get that wrong or processing staff occasionally mis read their handwriting which does not help. Problems can arise if this is wrong as then perceived non response tends to lead to automatic court stage which then takes longer to untangle when that comes to light.

 

[011976091]

I

I suspect the relatively low sum involved increases the chance of an out of court settlement, but of course that can't be guaranteed, given the evasion was intentional.
Post #2 suggests the approach to go for. She will need to wait for the formal letter from the railway now I guess, to see what they say about things. That will probably come in the next few weeks, but could take up to 6 months. Be sure to watch for post etc. Hopefully they have the correct address for her and took it down accurately. Staff can seem to get that wrong or processing staff occasionally mis read their handwriting which does not help. Problems can arise if this is wrong as then perceived non response tends to lead to automatic court stage which then takes longer to untangle when that comes to light.

I can’t say if the address was taken properly. I am fearful that because it is repeated offence they will not be lenient. We also lack the means to make a substantial offer. Though I am unsure if the size of settlement offered would sway the decision. There are many posts in here about settlements.

If she had asked for help with a few pounds we could have done this. This now is a true mess.

 

[WesternLancer]

I

I can’t say if the address was taken properly. I am fearful that because it is repeated offence they will not be lenient. We also lack the means to make a substantial offer. Though I am unsure if the size of settlement offered would sway the decision. There are many posts in here about settlements.

If she had asked for help with a few pounds we could have done this. This now is a true mess.

Don't worry too much at this stage. Seen worse on this forum! You need to wait to see what they write to your daughter, but when she gets the letter feel free to upload an anonymised copy here for people to help advise how best to reply if you like.

Obv you can't know if they mess up the admin their end - so if you have not heard by letter (that will be their method of communication almost certainly) before about 4 to 5 months it might be best to contact them to find out what is going on (or ask for advice here about doing that). Make a note of that in your diary date wise. Chances are she will hear in a few weeks or less though.

Going on examples posted, if they are amenable to a settlement offer it will likely be in the 100s not the £1000s I would guess. Not great but could be worse.

People make errors of judgment, but speaking personally, thanks to your daughter for her work in the NHS.

 

[philthetube]

Yes, the forum is able to help a lot of people who find themselves in difficult situations without having had any intent to avoid the correct fare. Although as you've made clear, that isn't the situation we're looking at here.

To clarify one point made above, if your daughter's employer or professional body asks to be told about any offences then your daughter must of course do so, but do check the wording of any obligation carefully to ensure that they are told only at the appropriate moment, if at all. I would imagine it would only be if your daughter has been successfully prosecuted. Any out of court settlement would probably not count.

would expect it to be either prosecuted or charged.

 

[011976091]

When you say ‘charged’ do you mean charged by the police?

 

[WesternLancer]

When you say ‘charged’ do you mean charged by the police?

Unclear what philthetube means. But I don't think the police generally get involved in these cases where matters are straightforward and the person without the valid ticket has given the staff the information they need.

 

[011976091]

Yes, unclear what philthetube means. But I don't think the police generally get involved in these cases where matters are straightforward and the person without the valid ticket has given the staff the information they need.

Thank you once again. There is little more to do until the rail company write. She made a terrible choice in a time of financial worry. Unlike some, we lack the financial clout to buy a way out and can only hope the fact that she has no prior history is a saving grace in an otherwise ‘bang-to-rights’ case. My wife is distraught. If my daughter even so much as looks at ticket machine in the wrong way, there will be hell to pay.

 

[philthetube]

that is the wording used in a contract I used to have, maybe once you are aware that you are to be prosecuted would be a better way fo putting it though I cannot imagine how that would be worded in a contract.

 

[Haywain]

we lack the financial clout to buy a way out

I think you have indicated that you do "have the clout" as a settlement is not likely to be as large as you seem to think. When the time comes and you respond to the train company's letter, state that you would like to settle the matter and cover their costs, but do not suggest an amount - the train company, if they are minded to go down that route, will suggest an amount in their response. Previous threads here indicate the amount is likely to be in the region of £120 - £200 plus the fares owed.