Shortage of trains to cause severe disruption to Penistone Line and Ormskirk-Preston

[Tomnick]

This is probably a dumb question but if your sliding what good does emergency do - is it just that any grip you do get will be used to the Max? I assume I am correct that emergency is just maximum brake force rather than anything cleverer?

If you’re in an uncontrolled slide, then it’ll do absolutely nothing. If it does start to grip then, as you say, you’ll have the maximum brake force (which, on some traction at least, isn’t any greater than a full service application) and, as someone else has said, it’ll prevent any stray feeds energising brake wires (traction dependent again). At that point, you’re just a passenger - there’s nothing more you can do. Without WSP, it’s far better to try to regain control by briefly releasing the brakes to get the wheels turning again, but you can only do that for as long as you’ve got the space to play with - once it’s clear you’re not going to stop in time, into emergency and hope for the best.

 

[Killingworth]

Oh look another shambles on Northern. Good thing I was sitting down before I read this thread.

Naive question coming up: has nobody invented a system for removing leaves from lines ?

Yes, they're called Rail Head Head Treatment Trains but they can't be everywhere and have to run between scheduled services, or at night.

Thanks to a very wet winter and spring, followed by a very warm summer, vegetation this year has grown more than usual, leaving us with a lot more leaves to fall. We haven't had any major gales to strip the trees of all their leaves this autumn, and it has been quite mild. Consequently the shedding of large volumes of leaves is being spread over a longer period, thus keeping tracks in vulnerable areas slippy for longer.

Operating RHTT units isn't as easy as may be imagined. Some will question their effectiveness but they've been in constant use since September, see picture below of one at Sheffield on 1st October.

What we need now is some really high wind and lashing rain to wash the last of the leaves away. Until then sliding wheels will be inevitable unless trains are to overshoot stations and junctions - which may get them to more places on time, but could end up killing quite a few people, or adding further delays as they have to back up. OK, more modern trains have brakes better able to deal with this, but shiny metal on shiny metal isn't ideal for getting a controlled quick stop at the best of times.

 

[B&I]

Yes, they're called Rail Head Head Treatment Trains but they can't be everywhere and have to run between scheduled services, or at night.

Thanks to a very wet winter and spring, followed by a very warm summer, vegetation this year has grown more than usual, leaving us with a lot more leaves to fall. We haven't had any major gales to strip the trees of all their leaves this autumn, and it has been quite mild. Consequently the shedding of large volumes of leaves is being spread over a longer period, thus keeping tracks in vulnerable areas slippy for longer.

Operating RHTT units isn't as easy as may be imagined. Some will question their effectiveness but they've been in constant use since September, see picture below of one at Sheffield on 1st October.

What we need now is some really high wind and lashing rain to wash the last of the leaves away. Until then sliding wheels will be inevitable unless trains are to overshoot stations and junctions - which may get them to more places on time, but could end up killing quite a few people, or adding further delays as they have to back up. OK, more modern trains have brakes better able to deal with this, but shiny metal on shiny metal isn't ideal for getting a controlled quick stop at the best of times.
View attachment 55733

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Probably explains why the front of my house is rapidly disappearing under a gigantic bank of leaves

 

[edwin_m]

Sorry for confusing you by abbreviating lathe operator.
No it is a genuine question? Why can't you just change a damaged wheel for a spare. Presumably if the wheel was damaged beyond repair you would have to do that?

Simple answer.
Trains are not like cars and don't have seperate wheels. They are solidly fitted to axles right across the unit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_wheel

To add to that reply: the wheel lathe can re-profile a wheel while it's still attached to the train, provided it isn't already down to the minimum diameter for scrapping. Changing a wheelset (two wheels and an axle) takes a lot longer.

Mk3 coaching stock has WSP, doesn’t it?

Yes. All stock with disc brakes has WSP, but as far as I know the only WSP on tread braked stock is a recent fitment to Anglia 156s.

This is probably a dumb question but if your sliding what good does emergency do - is it just that any grip you do get will be used to the Max? I assume I am correct that emergency is just maximum brake force rather than anything cleverer?

Some units give a bit more deceleration in emergency.

 

[Ken H]

If you’re in an uncontrolled slide, then it’ll do absolutely nothing. If it does start to grip then, as you say, you’ll have the maximum brake force (which, on some traction at least, isn’t any greater than a full service application) and, as someone else has said, it’ll prevent any stray feeds energising brake wires (traction dependent again). At that point, you’re just a passenger - there’s nothing more you can do. Without WSP, it’s far better to try to regain control by briefly releasing the brakes to get the wheels turning again, but you can only do that for as long as you’ve got the space to play with - once it’s clear you’re not going to stop in time, into emergency and hope for the best.

Does the emergency still have WSP active or does it just lock the wheels?
will a train stop quicker on emergency with wheels locked or on full with WSP? All MU's or do they vary? Is it the same in a 2 car as in a 10 car?
I imagine its scary sitting in the front cab listening to the WSP desperately trying to get a grip. But further down the train maybe other axles are braking just fine on the rail cleaned a bit by the wheelsets further forward.

I did an emergency stop last year on a country lane on a really rubbish surface (loose top dressing and leaf litter). The ABS kicked in and I could hear it juddering as it tried to grip. It did its job and it stopped me.

Is WSP like ABS or different? Sorry, i have never driven a train so dont know this stuff.

 

[Clip]

I think what particularly annoys me is that Northern appear to have been totally unprepared for Autumn and the fact that leaves fall off trees onto railway lines has come as a complete shock to them. The first I knew of the cancellations on the Penistone Line was when I checked my train times on monday morning; unless 42 units all suddenly developed wheel faults on sunday evening, they must have known in advance that they didn't have enough units to run a full service between Barnsley and Sheffield so why didn't they publish this information earlier.

I'm also sceptical about the flimsy excuse "More trains than usual needing repairs at the same time". Due to the Saturday strikes Northern are effectively only running a 6 day week railway and, as Sunday services are less frequent, most of their units are only in service Monday to Friday, so why not do the wheel repairs at the weekend?

They were prepared for autumn as much as possible I think - i even saw some literature about their leaf fall timetable online i think.

Because they will only have a certain amount of lathes across their depots and depending on how many wheels have flats on one set could mean that one train is on the lathe for quite a while thus you cant really get as many done as you think.


Maybe, just maybe, seeing as you are doing the blame game, you could have apop at Network Rail for not having enough RHTT in their fleet for these circumstances though I guess you could moan if they didnt utilise a large fleet every year and they were just left standing when we have a 'good' year for leaf fall.

Oh look another shambles on Northern. Good thing I was sitting down before I read this thread.

But no, lets blame EVERYTHING on Northern as its only they who can be at fault for everything on the railway - including trees.

 

[Bantamzen]

with Northern management being pre-occupied with the shortage of stock due to late electrification, and the strikes, one almost has sympathy for them failing to be on top on leaf fall season problems.
And today it snowed. ....

It can't be easy with an aging fleet that is slowly, or perhaps not so slowly falling apart as they try to refurbish / refresh units, deal with wheel flats & all the usual shenanigans that winter brings to the wilds of the North of England. Touch wood in my neck of the woods the 321/322/333s are just about holding up, because if they start to fall over with a DMU shortage…….

 

[jfowkes]

Steve Mould recently did a good video on the science of how leaves end up creating the slippery surface.

 

[Tomnick]

Does the emergency still have WSP active or does it just lock the wheels?
will a train stop quicker on emergency with wheels locked or on full with WSP? All MU's or do they vary? Is it the same in a 2 car as in a 10 car?
I imagine its scary sitting in the front cab listening to the WSP desperately trying to get a grip. But further down the train maybe other axles are braking just fine on the rail cleaned a bit by the wheelsets further forward.

I did an emergency stop last year on a country lane on a really rubbish surface (loose top dressing and leaf litter). The ABS kicked in and I could hear it juddering as it tried to grip. It did its job and it stopped me.

Is WSP like ABS or different? Sorry, i have never driven a train so dont know this stuff.

You’ll still get the benefit of WSP in emergency. You’ll stop more quickly with WSP active than if it’s just left to slide. It should be easier with a longer train, as you say, because the leading wheels will clean the railhead to some extent and make it easier for those further back in the train to get a grip. The general principle is very similar to ABS on a car -it releases and reapplies the brakes very quickly when it detects a slide to try and get the wheels turning again.

 

[Ken H]

You’ll still get the benefit of WSP in emergency. You’ll stop more quickly with WSP active than if it’s just left to slide. It should be easier with a longer train, as you say, because the leading wheels will clean the railhead to some extent and make it easier for those further back in the train to get a grip. The general principle is very similar to ABS on a car -it releases and reapplies the brakes very quickly when it detects a slide to try and get the wheels turning again.

thanks for clarifying

 

[scarby]

I can't remember it being a major issue with 1st gen dmu's

Because when they were around the railway was adequately provisioned with rolling stock.

If there was an issue, a spare unit could most likely be found.

The surplus also enabled the railway to increase train lengths at busy times, run holiday specials, strengthen the timetable at times such as the run up to Christmas, etc.

Then some bright spark decided that even though the railways had operated perfectly well for 100 years or so like this, there must be no spare provision. Stock sitting doing nothing for weeks was decreed to be “uneconomic”.

Thanks to this policy we see the terrible mess of today, on Northern, Hull Trains, Transpennine Express chronic overcrowding, etc.

 

[Killingworth]

Because when they were around the railway was adequately provisioned with rolling stock.

If there was an issue, a spare unit could most likely be found.

The surplus also enabled the railway to increase train lengths at busy times, run holiday specials, strengthen the timetable at times such as the run up to Christmas, etc.

Then some bright spark decided that even though the railways had operated perfectly well for 100 years or so like this, there must be no spare provision. Stock sitting doing nothing for weeks was decreed to be “uneconomic”.

Thanks to this policy we see the terrible mess of today, on Northern, Hull Trains, Transpennine Express chronic overcrowding, etc.

All so obvious, but Dr Beeching did identify an immense number of carriages doing nothing for 350 days or more each year. As always the solution has gone too far the other way. The average carriage must be in service nearly every day, leaving too little slack for maintenance, refurbishment and train strengthening.

Of course all those units stored or discarded long before they're life expired is another story.

 

[Llanigraham]

To add to that reply: the wheel lathe can re-profile a wheel while it's still attached to the train, provided it isn't already down to the minimum diameter for scrapping. Changing a wheelset (two wheels and an axle) takes a lot longer.

Sorry it is a Facebook link but I can't find it anywhere else, but this has just been released by TfW showing one the units on the wheel lathe

 

[dilbertphil]

Northern have had units on Ardwick all week to use the lathe as they try to get as many back in service as they can.

 

[AndrewE]

I can't remember it being a major issue with 1st gen dmu's

Because when they were around the railway was adequately provisioned with rolling stock.
If there was an issue, a spare unit could most likely be found.

The older units also had cast-iron brake blocks acting on the wheel treads, which scrubbed the contact surfaces (of the wheels at least.) It didn't remove the problem though... I remember a class 304 EMU which was braking on the approach to Goostrey one morning, the deceleration stopped abruptly and it suddenly went very quiet as we skated through the station. I think the driver set back into the platform without any major delays or formalities then we resumed our journey to Crewe - with a loud bang bang bang bang all the way.

 

[rg177]

144013 was doing the honours on a Doncaster-Leeds stopper earlier. That'll be fun at rush hour.

Seems to also be a DMU vice EMU on 1718 Leeds-Skipton and return according to Journeycheck

 

[30907]

Because when they were around the railway was adequately provisioned with rolling stock.

If there was an issue, a spare unit could most likely be found.

That may have been true in dmu- land, but on the Southern around 1980 there were constant shortages in the leaf fall season.

 

[Meerkat]

How much would it cost to keep even a ‘written off’ old unit in warm store and safely maintained?
I am thinking it wouldn’t be peanuts.....

 

[marcouk2]

they've been in constant use since September

Except when they've been at the Wheel Lathes for tyre turning themselves! DRS had to hire in other class 20's for a time so the RHTT could run.

 

[geoffk]

EMT were running a single class 158 on Norwich - Liverpool today (seen at Stockport), probably for the same reason.

 

[HLE]

When I asked earlier about ABS (WSP) I did suspect this would be the case. After all the 142s, 150s and 156s are 1980s technology...

Edit....

Article below suggests WSP can be retrofitted to older stock.

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...ve-wsp-breaking-system-across-rural-services-

To add to that reply: the wheel lathe can re-profile a wheel while it's still attached to the train, provided it isn't already down to the minimum diameter for scrapping. Changing a wheelset (two wheels and an axle) takes a lot longer.


Yes. All stock with disc brakes has WSP, but as far as I know the only WSP on tread braked stock is a recent fitment to Anglia 156s.


Some units give a bit more deceleration in emergency.

Class 153’s owned by porterbrook have had WSP fitted this year. It’s been an improvement on WMT, with wheelflats only really happening when coupled up to a 170, save for the very few drivers who seem intent on breaking the dogbox. (It’s boring work).

Can’t speak for GA and if it’s improved things their end.

 

[Dr Hoo]

That may have been true in dmu- land, but on the Southern around 1980 there were constant shortages in the leaf fall season.

I will certainly second that. As an operations manager on the South Western and South Eastern in the mid-1980s there were no ‘spare’ units and 8-car vice 12-car or 4 v 8 were quite common (with loads of overcrowding and complaints to match). Chart Leacon depot at Ashford was kept clear in autumn to expedite repairs.
I suspect that earlier in the 1st generation DMU era there were fewer trees and leaves around as it was soon after the end of steam.

 

[AndrewE]

I suspect that earlier in the 1st generation DMU era there were fewer trees and leaves around as it was soon after the end of steam.

Good point.

 

[northernchris]

144013 was doing the honours on a Doncaster-Leeds stopper earlier. That'll be fun at rush hour.

Seems to also be a DMU vice EMU on 1718 Leeds-Skipton and return according to Journeycheck

The 1718 surprisingly turned up as a 322. Northern still don't look to be in a great position with their units, but it's definitely noticeable the lack of wheelflats whilst in service this year

 

[dcbwhaley]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Probably explains why the front of my house is rapidly disappearing under a gigantic bank of leaves

No. That is because you are too lazy or too busy to sweep them up

 

[dcbwhaley]

They were prepared for autumn as much as possible I think - i even saw some literature about their leaf fall timetable online i think.

Because they will only have a certain amount of lathes across their depots and depending on how many wheels have flats on one set could mean that one train is on the lathe for quite a while thus you cant really get as many done as you think.


Maybe, just maybe, seeing as you are doing the blame game, you could have apop at Network Rail for not having enough RHTT in their fleet for these circumstances though I guess you could moan if they didnt utilise a large fleet every year and they were just left standing when we have a 'good' year for leaf fall.




But no, lets blame EVERYTHING on Northern as its only they who can be at fault for everything on the railway - including trees.

I have to say that on the Buxton line Northern are coping very well with the leaf problem which is quite serious around Middlewood (clue in the name). The run a slightly slower timetable which seem to work .

 

[B&I]

They were prepared for autumn as much as possible I think - i even saw some literature about their leaf fall timetable online i think.

Because they will only have a certain amount of lathes across their depots and depending on how many wheels have flats on one set could mean that one train is on the lathe for quite a while thus you cant really get as many done as you think.


Maybe, just maybe, seeing as you are doing the blame game, you could have apop at Network Rail for not having enough RHTT in their fleet for these circumstances though I guess you could moan if they didnt utilise a large fleet every year and they were just left standing when we have a 'good' year for leaf fall.




But no, lets blame EVERYTHING on Northern as its only they who can be at fault for everything on the railway - including trees.

Well they make a total Horlicks out of everything else, so an educated guess is that they could have avoided this had they exercised reasonable competence as well. This is after all the company which allows a computer to allocate crews, changes them round on one of the busiest and least reliable stretches of line in the country, and wonders why things go even further to pot.

Are any other compabies suffering the same problems ?

 

[B&I]

No. That is because you are too lazy or too busy to sweep them up

Both of those things are the case, but the unswept leaves are even more numerous than usual

 

[Dr Hoo]

Well they make a total Horlicks out of everything else, so an educated guess is that they could have avoided this had they exercised reasonable competence as well. This is after all the company which allows a computer to allocate crews, changes them round on one of the busiest and least reliable stretches of line in the country, and wonders why things go even further to pot.

Are any other compabies suffering the same problems ?

Quite apart from questions of whether other operators have a similar issues of vegetation management, RHTT coverage, mixing with struggling freight in a slippery Hope Valley, etc. there are presumably many ‘new’ drivers operating the significantly increased services on some routes such as the Hope Valley, Buxton and Bolton-Blackburn. These will no doubt be taking their first autumn carefully.
Hats off to them. I have been very impressed with the evident skill exercised on these and other services over the past couple of weeks of extensive travel.

 

[edwin_m]

The older units also had cast-iron brake blocks acting on the wheel treads, which scrubbed the contact surfaces (of the wheels at least.) It didn't remove the problem though... I remember a class 304 EMU which was braking on the approach to Goostrey one morning, the deceleration stopped abruptly and it suddenly went very quiet as we skated through the station. I think the driver set back into the platform without any major delays or formalities then we resumed our journey to Crewe - with a loud bang bang bang bang all the way.

The above may be an exception, but I've heard it said that the rough riding of the older units gave an extra scrubbing action to the wheel and the rail too. All designs from about class 313 and 150 onwards took advantage of advances in vehicle dynamics which allowed the wheels to run much more smoothly.

Class 153’s owned by porterbrook have had WSP fitted this year. It’s been an improvement on WMT, with wheelflats only really happening when coupled up to a 170, save for the very few drivers who seem intent on breaking the dogbox. (It’s boring work).

Can’t speak for GA and if it’s improved things their end.

According to December's Modern Railways TfW's 150s are also to get WSP.