Shotton - Chester

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kieron

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I've included three questions here, each only loosely related to the others. Please let me know if they should would be better off in separate threads.

I have a season ticket between Shotton and Chester. Could someone please tell me whether or not it would be valid on the line to Wrexham. My reading of the routeing guide suggests not, but the national rail enquiries site gives £4.30 journeys between the two via Wrexham (in fact, the first £4.30 Chester-Shotton route of the day uses the 0545 from Chester to Maesteg and the 0631 from Wrexham to Bidston).

Is this reasoning correct:

0. Shotton-Wrexham-Chester is longer than Shotton-Chester according to the Network Rail site, and has no scheduled services.
1. The routeing points of interest are Shotton and Chester.
4. The route on the ticket is ANY PERMITTED.
6. The only routeing code offered is CH.
7. Only the direct route is shown on map CH.
8. Only one easement mentions Shotton, and this appears irrelevant.

I notice that step 4 states that 'An "any permitted" ticket ... can be used on any route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a lower priced route specific fare exists.' Does this mean that the fact that Chester-Wrexham-Shotton costs £4.30 means that this is a permitted route by itself?

If Shotton-Wrexham-Chester is permitted, is there anything I can show a dubious guard?

The other thought I have had is to request a changeover to a Shotton-Wrexham ticket (which is valid to Chester as it also uses the CH code). I bought the original ticket on-line. I notice that the web site advises a request to be made a few days before it is needed, and at a station related to the new route. Is this because the station staff will spend a few days checking something before exchanging the tickets at the same ticket office? If not, how do changeovers work from the customer's perspective?

I notice that Shotton-Wrexham is permitted by routes BC+CH and CH+BC. The only link to Shotton on BC is directly to Wrexham, however. Can these combinations be used, or are they a mistake?
 
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bb21

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Is this reasoning correct:

0. Shotton-Wrexham-Chester is longer than Shotton-Chester according to the Network Rail site, and has no scheduled services.
1. The routeing points of interest are Shotton and Chester.
4. The route on the ticket is ANY PERMITTED.
6. The only routeing code offered is CH.
7. Only the direct route is shown on map CH.
8. Only one easement mentions Shotton, and this appears irrelevant.
Mileages for determining shortest routes are defined by the National Rail Timetable. I hope this is what you meant in Step 0. Shotton - Wrexham - Chester is clearly more than 3 miles longer than Shotton - Chester so the 3-mile rule does not apply either.

Apart from that, they appear correct.

I notice that step 4 states that 'An "any permitted" ticket ... can be used on any route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a lower priced route specific fare exists.' Does this mean that the fact that Chester-Wrexham-Shotton costs £4.30 means that this is a permitted route by itself?
The £4.30 ticket is a Route Any Permitted ticket between Shotton and Chester. It is not a "route specific fare" routed Via Wrexham General or something similar.

The other thought I have had is to request a changeover to a Shotton-Wrexham ticket (which is valid to Chester as it also uses the CH code).
This is correct. Shotton - Wrexham is valid via Chester.
 

kieron

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A Shotton - Chester ticket is not valid to travel via Wrexham.
That does leave the question of why it is being promoted as being valid for this journey.
Mileages for determining shortest routes are defined by the National Rail Timetable. I hope this is what you meant in Step 0. Shotton - Wrexham - Chester is clearly more than 3 miles longer than Shotton - Chester so the 3-mile rule does not apply either.
I didn't mention the 3 mile thing because the instructions don't mention it. The glossary only lists it with reference to stations with a common routeing point, and the "in detail" guide only mentions it where a journey doesn't have origin and destination routeing points. I'm not exactly sure what that means, but I don't think it can apply where both stations are routeing points.

The rules do state that the shortest route is always valid, so I mentioned that.
The £4.30 ticket is a Route Any Permitted ticket between Shotton and Chester. It is not a "route specific fare" routed Via Wrexham General or something similar.
Yes, of course...
 

bb21

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That does leave the question of why it is being promoted as being valid for this journey.
NRE does not always apply the Routeing Guide correctly, as it is only as good as the way it is written. There is a range of reasons why it is not perfect.

Unfortunately NRE does not sell tickets itself. If you can get a ticket-retailing website to sell you this ticket based on this itinerary then it will have to be honoured, in which case I recommend bringing a copy of the itinerary with you and sticking to the trains given.

Some members believe that as NRE claims that it is the definitive source, an itinerary given by it in relation to a ticket is arguably valid whoever you purchase it from.

I didn't mention the 3 mile thing because the instructions don't mention it. The glossary only lists it with reference to stations with a common routeing point, and the "in detail" guide only mentions it where a journey doesn't have origin and destination routeing points. I'm not exactly sure what that means, but I don't think it can apply where both stations are routeing points.
There are lots of inconsistencies within the Routeing Guide and some members believe that when there is conflicting information, the interpretation most favourable to the passenger can be taken.

The last paragraph on Page F9 in Section F of the NRG (The National Routeing Guide in Detail) suggests that the 3-mile rule is applicable for any journey.
 

John @ home

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I didn't mention the 3 mile thing because the instructions don't mention it. The glossary only lists it with reference to stations with a common routeing point, and the "in detail" guide only mentions it where a journey doesn't have origin and destination routeing points.
The statement at the bottom of page F9 of The National Routeing Guide on Detail is not restricted in this way.
The National Routeing Guide on Detail

Section E (the green pages) lists easements which apply to routeings.

Journeys on direct trains or taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/nrg_detail.pdf
It seems to me that the only meaning which may be ascribed to the inclusion of the word "always" in the first sentence of a Section describing Easements is that Journeys
  • on a through train, or
  • on train(s) taking the route of shortest distance, or
  • on train(s) taking a route longer than the route of shortest distance by no more than 3 miles
are always following a Permitted Route and cannot be prohibited by an Easement.
 

kieron

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NRE does not always apply the Routeing Guide correctly, as it is only as good as the way it is written. There is a range of reasons why it is not perfect.

Unfortunately NRE does not sell tickets itself. If you can get a ticket-retailing website to sell you this ticket based on this itinerary then it will have to be honoured, in which case I recommend bringing a copy of the itinerary with you and sticking to the trains given.
I could do that, but I already have a season ticket. I have got to the point where it asks for card details on the Arriva site, but I don't actually want to pay a second time for this journey.

I suppose I could print out an itinerary from the Arriva just as easily. I'm just a bit warier because season tickets don't actually have itineraries.

The nice thing about NRE is that they have URLs for most pages, and they work most of the time.

Incidentally, have you encountered a journey which is on NRE but isn't available from a ticket site?
The last paragraph on Page F9 in Section F of the NRG (The National Routeing Guide in Detail) suggests that the 3-mile rule is applicable for any journey.
Thanks. I wasn't doubting anyone; I was explaining why I didn't use it in my summary of the instructions.

Incidentally, I didn't change my season ticket because I bought it on-line and it wasn't worth doing without it for a few days to send it back. I'm thinking of buying a Shotton-Bidston one when this expires, though. I'm pretty sure travelling via Chester is the intent of easement 700076.
 
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