Should AT300's be ordered for CrossCountry and East Midlands Trains

[Haydn1971]

I find all this talk of running HS2 services between Sheffield city centre and Leeds very interesting given that in the past some forum members have suggested that Meadowhall is the future in terms of a transport 'hub'.

Will be interesting to see how that ends up, either as part of HS Phase 2, a separately funded tag onto HS2, something added after or a compete non starter
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Liverpool - Norwich

Please not with four/five car Voyagers !!!!!

Leeds - Stansted (via Nottingham)

Interesting idea, hopefully via Sheffield too

 

[freetoview33]

Will be interesting to see how that ends up, either as part of HS Phase 2, a separately funded tag onto HS2, something added after or a compete non starter
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Please not with four/five car Voyagers !!!!!



Interesting idea, hopefully via Sheffield too

Well EMT did want 222's on there, but yeah 220's would be worse. AT300's would be nice!

And yes would take over or be a faster version of the now Northern Leeds to Nottingham service then I guess to Leicester then following the current CrossCountry service to Stansted. Although I guess in an ideal world it would go via Old Dalby (we can all dream)

It would give Stansted a fast link from the North East. As long as services are express I don't see any issue with CrossCountry getting more services.
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or via Grantham like Liverpool/Norwich

 

[RobShipway]

Crossrail, obviously

The AT300's will not fit in the crossrail tunnels, will they?

 

[Emblematic]

I've posted elsewhere that a possible use for the 22x's is to use them for:

Scotrail - to replace the HST's

South West Trains - as 10 coach sets (Waterloo to Exeter - 0.5tph and 7 coach sets (Salisbury to Exeter 1.5tph) once electrification gets to Salisbury working with 2x5 coach 444's or equivalent running the remaining services between Salisbury and Waterloo

Chiltern - as 8 or 9 coach units to replace their loco sets and allow a cascade of their other units, either to provide for their own growth and/or to replace older units elsewhere


This is as very few of those services would benefit from bimodals due to the lack of OHLE's, therefore it would make more sense for XC to get the bimodals as there would be more wires.

The Scotrail suggestion is unlikely; the HSTs are set to remain for the current franchise duration and it's doubtful the Voyagers would meet the franchise specification even if HST replacement was desired. By the time the franchise is renewed, the aspiration is to have six of the seven cities covered by the HSTs wired, leaving just Inverness-Perth (and Inverness-Aberdeen, which isn't high speed) to be covered by diesel. They would not want to acquire a separate fleet to cover just Inverness.

 

[furnessvale]

The AT300's will not fit in the crossrail tunnels, will they?

Without studying the issue, I would be amazed, nay horrified, to discover that newly built railway tunnels were not large enough to fit ANY stock capable of traversing UK main lines.

 

[TheKnightWho]

The AT300's will not fit in the crossrail tunnels, will they?

They're hardly tube tunnels. They weren't built with 26m carriages in mind, but I'd be surprised if clearances were that tight.

 

[edwin_m]

The reason they wouldn't fit is nothing to do with gauging, more that the Crossrail tunnels will already be full with the trains they were designed to carry. And incidentally the AT300 couldn't call at any of the underground Crossrail stations even if there was capacity available, because the door spacings wouldn't match the platform screens.

 

[freetoview33]

Where does Crossrail even come into this?!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

They're hardly tube tunnels. They weren't built with 26m carriages in mind, but I'd be surprised if clearances were that tight.

The tunnels will take GB gauged stock, subject to adjusting the OLE and signal cable runs, and adjusting the stations/platforms.
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Where does Crossrail even come into this?!

I think someone got the wrong end of the stick when discussing a Wales to East Anglia service, and suggested CrossRail rather than East West Rail as the means to connect, in effect, the GWML and GEML.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Where does Crossrail even come into this?!

Well, the original Crossrail plan by BR in the 80s was for long-ish distance services to run through (like Bedford-Brighton on Thameslink).
Something like Southampton-Norwich was envisaged.
Over the years each re-plan reduced its scope, so that it is now just another TfL route across London with no long-distance aspirations.
At one time it was a main-line project with TfL just operating the central stations.
Then it became a 50-50 DfT/TfL project focussed on Heathrow and Canary Wharf, and now it's wholly TfL (with NR essentially as a contractor for the non-central lines).
Crossrail 2 is going the same way.

 

[freetoview33]

Well, the original Crossrail plan by BR in the 80s was for long-ish distance services to run through (like Bedford-Brighton on Thameslink).
Something like Southampton-Norwich was envisaged.
Over the years each re-plan reduced its scope, so that it is now just another TfL route across London with no long-distance aspirations.
At one time it was a main-line project with TfL just operating the central stations.
Then it became a 50-50 DfT/TfL project focussed on Heathrow and Canary Wharf, and now it's wholly TfL (with NR essentially as a contractor for the non-central lines).
Crossrail 2 is going the same way.

So basically London Crosslink

 

[43074]

So basically London Crosslink

Not really, London Crosslink used the North London Line to cross London, the BR plan would've used a new tunnel beneath London.

 

[freetoview33]

Not really, London Crosslink used the North London Line to cross London, the BR plan would've used a new tunnel beneath London.

Similar end to end location!
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Without going into too much detail this is the kind of thing I am suggesting!

Liverpool - Norwich (Becomes express, and operated by CrossCountry)

A new 2 hourly Peterborough - Norwich service operated by Abellio Greater Anglia to maintain services at local stations and make sure connections can still be made!

Then Peterborough - Sheffield stopper by East Midlands trains.

And Sheffield - Liverpool by Northern or TPE depending on stops.

 

[Class 170101]

Similar end to end location!
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Without going into too much detail this is the kind of thing I am suggesting!

Liverpool - Norwich (Becomes express, and operated by CrossCountry)

A new 2 hourly Peterborough - Norwich service operated by Abellio Greater Anglia to maintain services at local stations and make sure connections can still be made!

Then Peterborough - Sheffield stopper by East Midlands trains.

And Sheffield - Liverpool by Northern or TPE depending on stops.

These service groups are all arond existing franchise boundaries. Peterborough doesn't have any bay platforms and frankly passengers wouldn't want to change trains at the boundary points just because it suits the franchise map.

The services suggested above would be better linked together as a one through service.

 

[freetoview33]

Liverpool to Norwich won't exist as a stopper service for much longer

 

[Haydn1971]

Liverpool to Norwich won't exist as a stopper service for much longer

Where is that from ?

 

[freetoview33]

There have been numerous calls to split it at Nottingham we will have to see when the new East and West midlands franchises pop up.

Anyway I never suggested about getting rid of the link! Just removing some of the smaller stops, so it becomes an intercity service operated by CrossCountry.

 

[dosxuk]

There have been numerous calls to split it at Nottingham we will have to see when the new East and West midlands franchises pop up.

Those calls have been made for years and come to nowt. The only real proponents for such a split are people paid to come up with ideas inside the DfT, and trainspotters who don't like the EMT orange spreading from coast-to-coast. "They're East Midlands trains" they say, "Greater Anglia should run the Anglian side, and Transpennine should run the Pennine bit" they say.

You might recognise the idea...

 

[notlob.divad]

There have been numerous calls to split it at Nottingham we will have to see when the new East and West midlands franchises pop up.

Anyway I never suggested about getting rid of the link! Just removing some of the smaller stops, so it becomes an intercity service operated by CrossCountry.

There have also been numerous calls to split them at Sheffield, particularly given it reverses as Sheffield. Then E-Midlands could run Sheffield - Norwich and TPE run Liverpool-Sheffield. However the argument is always that it breaks the NW-E-Midlands/E-Anglia Link. (However slow the end to end journey may be.)

If a path could be made through Stoke and Derby with a comparable journey time I could see it being done, to reduce passenger loading on from the Hope Valley route. But to take it back to topic, this still wouldn't be good use of Bi-modes and I doubt it would be cross country running it as it doesn't go through Birmingham, the core of their network.

Bi-modes for XC sound sensible to get to the edges of their network, that are not going to be electrified in a while.

For E-Midlands, less so.

 

[Haydn1971]

Also, passenger loading on Hope Valley isn't a problem, just needs longer trains

 

[43074]

Anyway I never suggested about getting rid of the link! Just removing some of the smaller stops, so it becomes an intercity service operated by CrossCountry.

Which smaller stops, out of interest? Most Norwich - Liverpool services have few smaller stops anyway, and those that are there serve a purpose.

 

[freetoview33]

Which smaller stops, out of interest? Most Norwich - Liverpool services have few smaller stops anyway, and those that are there serve a purpose.

Widnes, Thetford

It also seems like there are loads of stations that get the odd service at times of the day.

 

[jimm]

Widnes, Thetford

It also seems like there are loads of stations that get the odd service at times of the day.

Do you get over to East Anglia much? Thetford a smaller station?

The population is getting on for 25,000. It is the most important intermediate stop between Ely and Norwich - because it's the most important town in the area.

The development in recent years of the Greater Anglia service between Norwich and Cambridge has actually relieved the Liverpool services of the need to make stops at plenty of places far smaller than Thetford. And the Thetford calls allow people for other intermediate stations served by GA to change in and out of the EMT services.

 

[The Ham]

Let's go back to some basics.
Does XC need more capacity? Yes
Is there scope for XC to run pure EMU's? Other than Manchester to Birmingham (or Coventry in the south coast services) no.
Is the MML being electrified? Yes, which frees up some it'd not all the 222's.
Will the 222's become available in the first 18 months of the new XC franchise solely due to electrification? No, which would probably mean that either XC or EMT would need bimodals.
I would argue that bimodals would be better at XC as the engines would be used for longer and could be delivered after the already placed orders for 80x's.

That then just leaves what to do with the 222's post electrification of the MML.
I would argue that some would be retained for off the wire services, but over time those being released could move across to Chiltern (and be reformed into 8 coach units) to either replace their loco services and/or to allow them to use them to replace their DMU's to either allow them to run more services and/or remove the need to use their bubble cars.

Alternatively if XC wait for 222's they may not be available until about 10 years time, meaning that the only units available to them being whatever 221's the ICWC franchise releases and HST's (which will require money being spent on them to be able to use them after 2020). Of course there is always loco hauling 442's, but unless they do that as part of the franchise extension it is unlikely that they will necessary be still available.

 

[Haydn1971]

The often forgotten solution is loco hauled Mk4s - there's 302 of them, of which VTEC aren't going to use even a quarter of - might not be ideal for MML or XC, but I don't see them being scraped anytime soon.

 

[47802]

The often forgotten solution is loco hauled Mk4s - there's 302 of them, of which VTEC aren't going to use even a quarter of - might not be ideal for MML or XC, but I don't see them being scraped anytime soon.

anyone for 442's

 

[60163]

The often forgotten solution is loco hauled Mk4s - there's 302 of them, of which VTEC aren't going to use even a quarter of - might not be ideal for MML or XC, but I don't see them being scraped anytime soon.

Absolutely, but which locos? 67s?

 

[D365]

The tunnels will take GB gauged stock, subject to adjusting the OLE and signal cable runs, and adjusting the stations/platforms.

That's an EU requirement I believe? For new railway route to be built to a more standardised gauge.

I think someone got the wrong end of the stick when discussing a Wales to East Anglia service, and suggested CrossRail rather than East West Rail as the means to connect, in effect, the GWML and GEML.

I think my little joke was missed...

 

[Haydn1971]

Absolutely, but which locos? 67s?

Well there isn't much existing choice other than the 67s at the moment, but how long would a new 125mph diesel or preferably bi-mode loco take to bring to the UK market ? 18-24 months perhaps ?

 

[pemma]

The often forgotten solution is loco hauled Mk4s - there's 302 of them, of which VTEC aren't going to use even a quarter of - might not be ideal for MML or XC, but I don't see them being scraped anytime soon.

Apparently the mk4s can't be used on the MML or on the Anglia-Liverpool St services.