Should Bus Travel be Free

[ikcdab]

Moderator Note - split from:

TfL bus fare prosecutions may be invalid

The Evening Standard has a story today which states that TfL bus fare prosecutions may be invalid due to incorrect online advice within their Frequently Asked Questions. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/tfl-dodging-bus-fare-convictions-invalid-sjp-b1171653.html The basis of the problem is...

www.railforums.co.uk

To be honest, it's about time all local bus journeys were free or only a nominal charge. If they really are serious about reducing pollution then the ULEZ zone charges should be increased and bus fares reduced. It's the easiest way to reduce traffic.
In my own part of the country we have had £1 flat rate fares. This has been so successful that guess what... The flat fare is being increased to £2. How to kill a good thing.

 

[Narrowgauge725]

To be honest, it's about time all local bus journeys were free or only a nominal charge. If they really are serious about reducing pollution then the ULEZ zone charges should be increased and bus fares reduced. It's the easiest way to reduce traffic.
In my own part of the country we have had £1 flat rate fares. This has been so successful that guess what... The flat fare is being increased to £2. How to kill a good thing.

Why should London have free bus fares? The rest of the country do not. Simply those who fail to pay their fare should be taken to task as should those who fail to pay their rail fare.

 

[FenMan]

To be honest, it's about time all local bus journeys were free or only a nominal charge. If they really are serious about reducing pollution then the ULEZ zone charges should be increased and bus fares reduced. It's the easiest way to reduce traffic.
In my own part of the country we have had £1 flat rate fares. This has been so successful that guess what... The flat fare is being increased to £2. How to kill a good thing.

For large parts of the country having a bus service at all would be a start.

 

[fandroid]

Why should London have free bus fares? The rest of the country do not. Simply those who fail to pay their fare should be taken to task as should those who fail to pay their rail fare.

If London paid for free bus travel via the Council Tax, as it already does for Freedom Passes, then it's entirely up to London to do it. Fare policies in the rest of the country are irrelevant.

 

[Wolfie]

If London paid for free bus travel via the Council Tax, as it already does for Freedom Passes, then it's entirely up to London to do it. Fare policies in the rest of the country are irrelevant.

As a Londoner l would be happy for people who live here to get free travel paid for by Council Tax. People from the rest of the country though? Hell no! Why should l pay for their bus ride?

 

[MrJeeves]

People from the rest of the country though? Hell no! Why should l pay for their bus ride?

Why should tourists make use of the same government rail subsidy that we pay for in taxes?!?!

Because they help to fund your economy...

 

[Narrowgauge725]

If London paid for free bus travel via the Council Tax, as it already does for Freedom Passes, then it's entirely up to London to do it. Fare policies in the rest of the country are irrelevant.

Does London Council tax actually pay the whole cost of running TFL or do we tax payers help out too?

 

[TheSel]

To be honest, it's about time all local bus journeys were free or only a nominal charge. If they really are serious about reducing pollution then the ULEZ zone charges should be increased and bus fares reduced. It's the easiest way to reduce traffic.
In my own part of the country we have had £1 flat rate fares. This has been so successful that guess what... The flat fare is being increased to £2. How to kill a good thing.

Yet another attack on pensioners and on one of the few remaining perks of having an ENCTS pass.

ENCTS has already been significantly devalued. Pass holders used to save £5 and more per journey. Now cut to a £2 saving. Diabolical.

 

[fandroid]

ENCTS has already been significantly devalued. Pass holders used to save £5 and more per journey. Now cut to a £2 saving. Diabolical.

I hope this dog in a manger comment is ironic!

 

[ikcdab]

Why should London have free bus fares? The rest of the country do not. Simply those who fail to pay their fare should be taken to task as should those who fail to pay their rail fare.

I meant that all local bus fares should be free or a nominal sum. If we are really serious about reducing car usage, and local usage is the most damaging, then all local buses should be free and funded through local taxation of some sort.
Back in 2017 I visited Kiev. The metro there was a flat rate of 5 HR which is about 10p. And it was busy with very few cars. Mind you, that probably reflects more the local economy rather than a drive to reduce cars on the road.

 

[Wolfie]

I hope this dog in a manger comment is ironic!

Indeed. Free is an infinite percentage saving on any fare lol....

 

[Benjwri]

I think it’s worth thinking about all the other issues in London first. There are a significant amount of other things that money should be spent on before we start making buses free, which is a significant undertaking and pretty much unheard of across the country.

Does London Council tax actually pay the whole cost of running TFL or do we tax payers help out too?

The government has contributed limited funds to TfL since Covid. The level of funding is similar or lower when population is accounted for to the rest of the countries transport systems.

I hope this dog in a manger comment is ironic!

I would hope so, although a sentiment I have heard before. The idea that other people shouldn’t get a good thing because it would seem less exclusive to those that have it is ridiculous, given others having it doesn’t affect them at all.

 

[TheSel]

The idea that other people shouldn’t get a good thing because it would seem less exclusive to those that have it is ridiculous, given others having it doesn’t affect them at all.

Slightly off topic perhaps, but does that argument work with respect to staff travel passes? A travelling Revenue Protection Officer, for example, presumably is not paying for the journey on which they "catch" a fare dodger. Just saying!

 

[Benjwri]

Slightly off topic perhaps, but does that argument work with respect to staff travel passes? A travelling Revenue Protection Officer, for example, presumably is not paying for the journey on which they "catch" a fare dodger. Just saying!

They are paying, in my opinion, for staff travel facilities in that they are a perk of the job and therefore potentially in lieu of a higher wage.

 

[Wolfie]

Slightly off topic perhaps, but does that argument work with respect to staff travel passes? A travelling Revenue Protection Officer, for example, presumably is not paying for the journey on which they "catch" a fare dodger. Just saying!

The Revenue Protection Officer in your example is doing his job so why would he be expected to pay to do so? What next? A proposal that the driver and guard have to buy tickets for the train they are working?

I am assuming that you were joking - if not you really hadn't thought it through!

 

[HullRailMan]

I think it’s worth thinking about all the other issues in London first. There are a significant amount of other things that money should be spent on before we start making buses free, which is a significant undertaking and pretty much unheard of across the country.

The government has contributed limited funds to TfL since Covid. The level of funding is similar or lower when population is accounted for to the rest of the countries transport systems.

I would hope so, although a sentiment I have heard before. The idea that other people shouldn’t get a good thing because it would seem less exclusive to those that have it is ridiculous, given others having it doesn’t affect them at all.

Central government produced £1.2bn to TfL in the last funding period. Is that what you call ‘limited’?

TfL Statement - Update on Government funding settlement

TfL Statement - Update on Government funding settlement

tfl.gov.uk

 

[Wolfie]

Central government produced £1.2bn to TfL in the last funding period. Is that what you call ‘limited’?

TfL Statement - Update on Government funding settlement

TfL Statement - Update on Government funding settlement

tfl.gov.uk

Taking account of the population of London and compared with the ridiculous amount of subsidy given to economic basketcases like Northern that is limited.

 

[Benjwri]

Central government produced £1.2bn to TfL in the last funding period. Is that what you call ‘limited’?

TfL Statement - Update on Government funding settlement

TfL Statement - Update on Government funding settlement

tfl.gov.uk

As mentioned by @Wolfie you ignored where I said when population is taken into account. In 2023 TfL had an operating surplus, government money is spent on upgrades such as new Piccadilly Line trains. The actual day to day service is not funded by the government.

This will mean that TfL will achieve an overall operating surplus of £79m, which will then be reinvested directly into enhancements across the transport network as part of TfL's wider £2bn capital programme as outlined in its Business Plan, with any government funding in 2023/24 allocated to fund capital investments across the network.

 

[Djgr]

I meant that all local bus fares should be free or a nominal sum. If we are really serious about reducing car usage, and local usage is the most damaging, then all local buses should be free and funded through local taxation of some sort.
Back in 2017 I visited Kiev. The metro there was a flat rate of 5 HR which is about 10p. And it was busy with very few cars. Mind you, that probably reflects more the local economy rather than a drive to reduce cars on the road.

Free is much better than nominal because with one step you remove a whole load of non-productive costs.

Ticket selling, ticket checking, prosecution. You also remove a lot of idle time when the driver could actually be driving.

 

[A0wen]

Moderator Note - split from:

TfL bus fare prosecutions may be invalid

The Evening Standard has a story today which states that TfL bus fare prosecutions may be invalid due to incorrect online advice within their Frequently Asked Questions. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/tfl-dodging-bus-fare-convictions-invalid-sjp-b1171653.html The basis of the problem is...

www.railforums.co.uk

To be honest, it's about time all local bus journeys were free or only a nominal charge. If they really are serious about reducing pollution then the ULEZ zone charges should be increased and bus fares reduced. It's the easiest way to reduce traffic.
In my own part of the country we have had £1 flat rate fares. This has been so successful that guess what... The flat fare is being increased to £2. How to kill a good thing.

Why should some people be subsidised to travel ?

If you want to peddle the green agenda you need to discourage travel period, except by walking or cycling.

 

[miklcct]

I don't agree buses should be free. They should be as cheap as the break even level for the whole network.

Buses in Hong Kong are cheap but the aim is to make a profit on a network level basis. This is done by aggressive route planning with the aim to carry as many people on a bus as possible to run them fast to the destination.

It was a shame that the M4 bus lane wasn't aggressively used by TfL to run premium express commuter buses from the whole of West London to warrant its existence.

 

[HSTEd]

As the bus statistics indicate, the state already pays a large fraction of the cost of operating the bus industry.

In England, bus industry revenue is ~£5.54bn, of which only £3.12bn is actually fares. The rest is various forms of governmetn support, including concessionary travel passes paid for by the state.

The actual cost of eliminating bus fares would likely be less than this because there would be major operational savings from eliminating revenue protection requirements.
Buses could practically use multiple doors, load and unload faster and all the ancillary costs would be eliminated.

Considering the bus driver wage bill is ~£2.3bn, even modest improvements in bus driver productivity would yield significant savings.

 

[6Gman]

One fundamental question about "free" bus travel.

How would the level of service be determined?

 

[ikcdab]

One fundamental question about "free" bus travel.

How would the level of service be determined?

By demand, just as it is now. Unpopular routes have service reduced, popular routes have service enhanced.

 

[mangyiscute]

Can I suggest that rather than making it free for absolutely everyone, we follow in Scotlands path and make it free for youngsters to encourage travel for those who can't use a car?
I would also suggest a system by which anyone who doesn't own a car gets free bus travel, but this may be harder to implement. Perhaps anyone who doesn't have a valid drivers licence.
Ensuring those who can't drive can still travel is super important, and this is one way to target it.

 

[ikcdab]

Can I suggest that rather than making it free for absolutely everyone, we follow in Scotlands path and make it free for youngsters to encourage travel for those who can't use a car?
I would also suggest a system by which anyone who doesn't own a car gets free bus travel, but this may be harder to implement. Perhaps anyone who doesn't have a valid drivers licence.
Ensuring those who can't drive can still travel is super important, and this is one way to target it.

That may well help disadvantaged people, but it does nothing to get cars off the road and people using buses instead. I want to be able to stop using my car and I would be encouraged hugely by free or very low bus fares.

 

[TheSel]

By demand, just as it is now. Unpopular routes have service reduced, popular routes have service enhanced.

Popularity has the square root of diddly-squat to do with social necessity.

A route passing a remote point where Mr or Mrs Bloggs needs to visit the shops / dentist / doctor (etc) is just as (or more) important than one taking half a dozen punters on a day out to enjoy the scenery.

... I want to be able to stop using my car ...

There's a way of doing that. Stop using your car!

OK - somewhat tongue in cheek. But there's always a way. It may mean a change in your lifestyle. Maybe one you don't wish / can't afford to make.

But everything is possible. At a price.

 

[renegademaster]

Does London Council tax actually pay the whole cost of running TFL or do we tax payers help out too?

They get to keep a greater proportion of businesses rates then most country councils would. Its essentially a subsidy but hidden from the bean counters

 

[dk1]

£1 bus fares minimum for short central journeys yes I agree but how do you enforce it especially when changing drivers? Nothing should be totally free in life and even my 80 year old mum has said for 15 odd years she’d be happy to pay a minimum 50p per trip.

 

[HSTEd]

Can I suggest that rather than making it free for absolutely everyone, we follow in Scotlands path and make it free for youngsters to encourage travel for those who can't use a car?
I would also suggest a system by which anyone who doesn't own a car gets free bus travel, but this may be harder to implement. Perhaps anyone who doesn't have a valid drivers licence.
Ensuring those who can't drive can still travel is super important, and this is one way to target it.

The problem with targeting is that it would still require the existing payment infrastructure to be maintained, along with all the operational headaches that it causes.
I'm not convinced it is worth the effort.

£1 bus fares minimum for short central journeys yes I agree but how do you enforce it especially when changing drivers? Nothing should be totally free in life and even my 80 year old mum has said for 15 odd years she’d be happy to pay a minimum 50p per trip.

Even including the concessionary pass income as fares, the average fare income per journey in England isn't much more than £1 as it is!

We are at the point where a significant portion of the entire fare income vanishes into the operational costs of collecting payment at all.

The bus system is already suffering due to reducing economies of scale from shrinking passenger numbers - we need bulk if the system is to survive at all.