Should First Class be abolished throughout the UK Rail Network?

[Senex]

Felt I had to chip in here since I feel the whole (and frequently recurring) question of whether first class should be abolished simply misses the point.

FC is not about elitism or separating 'toffs' from 'plebs' and certainly nothing at all to do with 'class'. It is about personal choice; the ability in a free society to simply pay more for a better product. Those who say that first class should be scrapped because it is somehow divisive presumably also believe that when you go to a supermarket you shouldn't be able to pay a little more for a better cut of meat or higher quality fruit; that you shouldn't be able to own a more expensive car or live in a larger house or wear a nicer suit than anyone else because this would be morally wrong; that because some people do not wish to pay more for extra space or comfort when they travel then no-one should. Is this not essentially Marxist?
It comes down to how we wish to spend spend our hard-earned cash. I earn a good salary but am by no means rich. I do not smoke or have the latest mobile phone or take foreign holidays but I do choose to travel first class, both from where I live on the South Coast into London once a week and on occasion to Scotland. I share the first class carriage with a variety of different people, from students (on long distance travel) to businessmen and the elderly, all of whom have chosen to pay more for a better experience. If we are occasionally scowled at through the partition by those patrons of Standard class who are forced to stand at busy times it is symptomatic of the rather strange culture-current in this country of not really being allowed to have better things, regardless of what you may have sacrificed for it. Our gutter press after all adore an underdog, but as soon as someone has strived and been successful they become a target, and need to be 'brought down a peg'. Can't have anyone really 'making it', that's not fair on all the rest(!). But perhaps I'm digressing...

In short, yes, definitely keep First Class, long distance and short. I'm claustrophobic and do not wish to be crushed in the mincemeat of bodies and bags and upended bicycles that constitute a peak-hour train. I enjoy being in motion and watching the outside world go by in peace and quiet and a little comfort, where I can think or work or relax. If that means I forego certain other things for the privilege then so be it. That's my choice.

Very well said, sir -- I completely agree with you. But to elaborate on the Marxist point. A good few years ago now I worked for a while in the former East Germany and was a regular user of the state railway, Deutsche Reichsbahn. All long-distance trains had first-class accommodation, and this was heavily used not only by individual travellers paying for themselves but also by those travelling on business for public bodies and for industry. There was never any argument that there was something wrong with this provision of an extra class of travel -- and the on-train staff made a very good job of keeping those with second-class tickets out, even when their part of the train was full and standing. But then train fares in general were affordable (without the lottery of can you book in advance, how far in advance can you book, etc, that plagues trying to travel by train in this country nowadays), first class was a standard 50% above second class, and there was a supplement for travelling on D or E trains which kept short-distance passengers off them. Would TPE be such an unpleasant experience if its services (even if there were fewer of them on the Leeds-Manchester core) were kept for longer-distance passengers only?

 

[Essexman]

Should all seats at theatres, football matches or on planes be priced the same? No. People accept that there is price differentiation related to the product - service / comfort / view etc. It should be the same on trains.

I use first class for work if I can get a reasonably priced ticket (EMT are particularly good) and Weekend First for leisure. If first class was removed the railways would lose some lucrative business travel from people who will use the train if they can be assured of the comfort, space & service of first class, but would drive or fly if they had to travel in a packed all standard train where they couldn't work or relax so easily.

 

[Mag_seven]

I think it should be abolished.
Why should one carriage be crammed with poor commuters while an almost empty carriage is reserved for the rich?
The class system is unfair wherever it exists.
Surely all people should be treated equally and not as 1st and 2nd class citizens? Don't forget we all pay towards rail in part by taxes.

If you support two classes, ask yourself why not three?
The answer is the reason we need Standard class all-round.

What an old fashioned view - standard class is full of poor people and first class rich snobs that look down on others. Thank god we've moved on from the 1970's.

 

[ivanhoe]

Problems have been exacerbated by the trend towards short formation trains since the 1980's along with some obscure reasons for trying to run trains using bus frequencies.If you take the Virgin services to Liverpool, you could easily convert at least one carriage to Standard as you could on some of the Manchester trains. There is always an obsession to run as many trains as possible without investing where required, longer platforms and better exit/ entry technologies.
There is a need for First Class on Inter City Routes, but I would argue that a ticket does not entitle you to share a carriage with three other people. As for the TPE routes, certain Cross Country routes etc, I'd abolish First Class tomorrow. You'd make up the revenue by having better revenue protection measures in place.

 

[Alan White]

What an old fashioned view - standard class is full of poor people and first class rich snobs that look down on others. Thank god we've moved on from the 1970's.

But we haven't, and I speak as a comfortably-off early retiree who would be regarded by many as "rich". I often travel SWT to/from Bracknell and the attitude of the really rich as they disembark from their first class closet at Virginia Water or Sunningdale is palpable.

However, I'm quite happy to pay more for a product if I think there's value in it for me, and I have no desire to see such choice removed on the railways or elsewhere. I have travelled first class and would do so again but only on long journeys. I don't see the point of first class on short journey commuter trains such as BCE-WAT.

I suspect that the original question and its author has a background of crowded commuter trains where first class is underused. In such cases then I do support the removal of first class if it meant that more people could sit or at least be more comfortable standing.

 

[yorksrob]

Compared to the rest of society, where snooty night clubs can turn you away just because you don’t look right, or Daddy's connections can help to ease you into a plum job, good old first class, where anyone can get in so long as they cough up, seems perfectly egalitarian.

 

[Greenback]

In my view, giving people a choice as to whether they are prepared to pay more for a better product is not a bad thing. Some overseas visitors seem to only consider travelling first class. If the option wasn't there for them to do so, maybe they wouldn't even come to the UK at all, and instead got to other European countries where they can pay for extra space and comfort.

It's down to the TOC to decide how to make first class provision worthwhile, and also whether they wish to provide it at all. I do think, however, that if the facility was completely withdrawn across the country, then we would be worse off rather than better off overall.

 

[me123]

I'm an occasional first class user and see no reason why it should be abolished. I would agree that some FC services seem pointless (such as those on short commuter routes), but at the end of the day TOCs are businesses and if people want to pay for that service then I'm quite happy for the TOC to provide it.

When I use FC it's I services where I'll benefit from a value added product (eg Virgin East and Virgin West). Services where you get a better seat and a pair of curtains (Scotrail) don't interest me. I wonder if those who wish FC abolished are focussing more on the poorer FC services rather than the quality ones?

I suspect that biggest gripe with first class seems to be the perceived mismatch in capacity between the two (instances where FC is empty whilst SC is full and standing) but this is an issue that is best resolved by addressing this mismatch. Ditching FC, which is surely a valuable revenue source of the TOCs, isn't the answer.

As for FC being prohibitively expensive, I can regularly get an advance return (2 singles) from Aberdeen to Edinburgh in FC for the same price as the SC walk up fare. And there are not infrequent instances of FC advance being cheaper than SC. If booked in advance, it's more affordable than people might think and it improves your travel experience.

 

[Greenback]

I suspect that biggest gripe with first class seems to be the perceived mismatch in capacity between the two (instances where FC is empty whilst SC is full and standing) but this is an issue that is best resolved by addressing this mismatch. Ditching FC, which is surely a valuable revenue source of the TOCs, isn't the answer.

Indeed. I understand how annoying it is to be in a packed standard class coach only to see that there are less than ten people occupying one, two or three first class coaches.

But, as you say, it's up to the TOC's to address that balance through their pricing strategies. I remember people in railway magazines bemoaning the lack of off peak first class fares as far back as 1998/99.

 

[Flamingo]

There are some really good points being raised here. Thanks everybody that is contributing and voting.

 

[Sleepy]

Can any FGW insiders tell us how the reduction in 1st class accommodation on HST has impacted on loading ?

 

[monsento]

i think its been agreed that a few services it should disappear, you dont need it on branch lines or local services.

but its not just about rich folk, its about having a nice time, getting some work done etc, its a optional extra.

 

[LeeLivery]

As a frequent Southern user which doesn't have first class on suburbans (declassified on Electrostars) I honestly see no need for it on short journeys, but I understand that some people like it. I think we need a bit of utilitarianism here. If a services are vastly overcrowded and first has only one or two people should it be scrapped for the greater good? Chiltern passengers seem happy without first class on the DMUs.

I don't see first and second as elite and pleb, but I also agree that first should really only be on InterCity (West Coast, Midland, East Coast, CrossCountry, Anglia and Great Western, maybe London-Weymouth). The whole rail network has been fragmented into vast differences, even in first class. How first class can be called first on SN or SE, my mind can't comprehend. There should be a standard set across all rail operators for the service in first class - free wifi, 1+2 seating, curtains, power sockets, some free food & drink, newspapers etc. We really should step away from this 5 car InterCity units, XC shows this doesn't work.

So no first shouldn't be ditched everywhere, just on those routes that can't provide the level of expectations.

 

[TheNewNo2]

I see no problem with First Class on intercity trains, but on commuter stock? I don't see why people want to travel in a section when the only upgrade you get is an antimacassar on the head rest!

 

[Flamingo]

Can any FGW insiders tell us how the reduction in 1st class accommodation on HST has impacted on loading ?

The routes and trains I work, it seems to be working well. Some loss of availabilityon Weekend First, but a greater chance of getting a seat in Standard on those same trains.

 

[yorksrob]

The routes and trains I work, it seems to be working well. Some loss of availabilityon Weekend First, but a greater chance of getting a seat in Standard on those same trains.

Perhaps they weren't offering the correct 1st class fares on those trains in the first place.

 

[Bishopstone]

As a frequent Southern user which doesn't have first class on suburbans (declassified on Electrostars) I honestly see no need for it on short journeys, but I understand that some people like it. I think we need a bit of utilitarianism here. If a services are vastly overcrowded and first has only one or two people should it be scrapped for the greater good? Chiltern passengers seem happy without first class on the DMUs.

Do Chiltern manage to seat everyone during the peaks, bar short hops within Zones 1-6? I thought that was the case when they abolished First Class, which accounted for the relative lack of uproar from FC season ticket holders: ie they weren't paying a premium for a seat 'guarantee'.

 

[Flamingo]

Perhaps they weren't offering the correct 1st class fares on those trains in the first place.

What do you mean by correct? I see lots of Advance First Class tickets that are less than the walk-up Standard Class fares. If First Class is going to be offered, once there is the capacity to hold the usual Standard Class numbers on the train, then if the TOC is prepared to haul empty air around, that is up to them. If there is an empty First Class, but 100 empty Standard Class seats, why should it matter that the First Class is empty?

 

[Richard1960]

I use first class on longer Journeys i welcome the peace and quite ,and on some Ist class journeys you can have a meal included.

It is much more comfortable bigger tables,more lighting on tables curtains you can close to block everything out if you want a doze all in all i would keep it.

 

[yorksrob]

What do you mean by correct? I see lots of Advance First Class tickets that are less than the walk-up Standard Class fares. If First Class is going to be offered, once there is the capacity to hold the usual Standard Class numbers on the train, then if the TOC is prepared to haul empty air around, that is up to them. If there is an empty First Class, but 100 empty Standard Class seats, why should it matter that the First Class is empty?

But when there are 100 empty standard class seats isn't the issue, otherwise why downgrade 1'st class seats and loose the opportunity for upgraded fares?

Surely the problem occurs when there is full standard and underused first, in which instance first isn't being priced properly.

 

[Flamingo]

But when there are 100 empty standard class seats isn't the issue, otherwise why downgrade 1'st class seats and loose ti he opportunity for upgraded fares?

Surely the problem occurs when there is full standard and underused first, in which instance first isn't being priced properly.

It is very rare on a HST to have an empty First Class and a totally full Standard Class - I can't remember seeing it.

There might be some full carriages in Standard Class, but if passengers walk through they will find usually find seats.

However, that's not the discussion for this thread, as it has been done to death in previous threads.

I was more wondering what the view would be if First Class was removed, lock, stock and barrel. Then the issue on empty seats in First Class (and the potential problems when people on Standard Class tickets sit in them or stand beside them) will no longer be there, either for the passengers OR the TOC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. I understand how annoying it is to be in a packed standard class coach only to see that there are less than ten people occupying one, two or three first class coaches.

But, as you say, it's up to the TOC's to address that balance through their pricing strategies. I remember people in railway magazines bemoaning the lack of off peak first class fares as far back as 1998/99.

Advance tickets do help, but relatively few TOCs have walk up equivalents, and they often have heavy restrictions and a higher than expected price.

 

[Flamingo]

Advance tickets do help, but relatively few TOCs have walk up equivalents, and they often have heavy restrictions and a higher than expected price.

But, if enough people are prepared to pay it, why shouldn't they have the choice to do so? It's up to them (or their expense account manager) to decide if it's worth it.

 

[Greenback]

My point is that there have rarely been off peak first class walk up offers, which could be a reason why people see first class as being underused.

It's true that standard class is not likely to be overused at these times, but it's a way of TOC's increasing their revenue from those who are prepared to pay more for a first class walk up fare than they are for the equivalent in standard class, because they are getting more space, quieter seats and whatever else they consider to be worth it, but aren't willing to pay the full first class fare for the same thing.

There may not be many of these people, but I see it as a method of income generation that requires very little in the way of effort or expense. Were first class facilities to be withdrawn across the board, it would deny people the chance to pay for a better environment altogether, but I don't think it's fulfilling its potential at the moment anyway.

 

[Merseysider]

I think First on LM should go; it's really no different to the rest of the train (except maybe the plugs).

First on VT should definitely be kept, although I did hear they were permanently declassifying coach G on the Scotland runs at some point.

I've only been on 10-15 Southern trains but I really didn't see how First could be necessary there either, they're basically a bigger and better version of Merseyrail.

 

[Greenback]

i think its been agreed that a few services it should disappear, you dont need it on branch lines or local services.

but its not just about rich folk, its about having a nice time, getting some work done etc, its a optional extra.

I don't think it's so easily categorised. There are those who will happily pay a premium for a better product on short distance services and local trains. Not all of these are necessarily short journeys either, there are lots of non Inter city longer distance services that used to have first class, and I think could still do so, but for the fact the rush to replace longer trains with short one sin the 1980's has left a lot of then service son these routes far too busy to allow it to happen!

 

[yorksrob]

It is very rare on a HST to have an empty First Class and a totally full Standard Class - I can't remember seeing it.

There might be some full carriages in Standard Class, but if passengers walk through they will find usually find seats.

However, that's not the discussion for this thread, as it has been done to death in previous threads.

I was more wondering what the view would be if First Class was removed, lock, stock and barrel. Then the issue on empty seats in First Class (and the potential problems when people on Standard Class tickets sit in them or stand beside them) will no longer be there, either for the passengers OR the TOC.

My view is, if there isn't enough train, there isn't enough train. That's going to be an issue whether there's first or not, so why get rid of one of rail' s selling points.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't product, 's so easily categorised. There are those who will happily pay a premium for a better product on short distance services and local trains. Not all of these are necessarily short journeys either, there are lots of non Inter city longer distance services that used to have first class, and I think could still do so, but for the fact the rush to replace longer trains with short one sin the 1980's has left a lot of then service son these routes far too busy to allow it to happen!

Indeed. When 1'st class compartments were available on the Southern , they represented a distinctive product which I would have liked to have taken advantage of in later years when I could afford it. Sadly, by the time I was in a position to the trains had all changed and first was identical to standard.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Is First Class more hassle than it's worth and has it outlived it's usefulness in this egalitarian utopia that is modern-day Britain?

Egalitarian utopia? Which Kafkaesque propaganda have you been reading good citizen?

Seriously, first class services a very distinct purpose which is to provide a high class of service for those who wish to pay - it also serves your egalitarian principles in that it is open to everyone (even sometimes being cheaper than standard).

The question you really need to ask is what services get provided. In standard it is a basic A to B with a seat with additional services such as food, drinks, Wifi etc being provided for a nominal sum (sometimes zero, depending upon the operator).

First class provides all of the above in a single package, along with some additional benefits such as more comfortable seating; location of carriage (e.g.: closest to station exit upon arrival in London) and some degree of peace and quiet.

This latter set of services is worth every penny if, for example, to give a case where I used it a month or so ago on Virgin East Coast. Fly in to UK, dash across to Kings X from Heathrow and then get a single, comfortable seat, meals and drinks delivered to table, Wifi and some peace to work, not forgetting lounge access of course.

Now, there are times when I won't pay for first class, for example, travelling o Southern where first class just means additional expense, or Heathrow Express where the journey is 20 mins.

Here in sunny Finland, 'business class' means that the seat next to you remains free, you get free tea and coffee, news papers and a carriage that is conveniently located for arrival into Helsinki and peace and quiet. On the other hand our trains have very nice double deck 'cafe' cars open to all.

First class (or whatever you want to call it) to stay please!

t.

Ian

ps: VTEC provided an excellent service on my London-Leeds travels: cheerful, friendly staff and reasonable food.

 

[HowardGWR]

Egalitarian utopia? Which Kafkaesque propaganda have you been reading good citizen?

Just as an OT comment, I can't see any connection between the works of Kafka and that comment. Did you mean someone else I wonder?

 

[Sheepyaidan]

It should only be removed on SWT services. There's only 1 difference, the seat size. And the Standard seats are fine even on the 450!
I guess its quieter but there fairly short journeys on SWT.