Should First Class be abolished throughout the UK Rail Network?

[47802]

My view is it should be retained on major intercity routes out of London, Perhaps London Airport services such as Gatex, and possibly primary links between Major cities.

So essentially that would be London- Norwich, Gatex, Stanstead etc, FGW IEP only, Virgin East and West Coast, MML, Scotrail HST's, XC Voyager routes only, SWT 444's and 159's for the Weymouth and Exeter routes, and that would be it.

Seating might also be reduced in some cases as per FGW and should be a true premium product not just better seats, eg complimentary catering compulsory.

 

[Flamingo]

Seating might also be reduced in some cases as per FGW and should be a true premium product not just better seats, eg complimentary catering compulsory.

What, you mean the passenger MUST eat it?

 

[Starmill]

I sometimes make trips because First Class is available. Last Thursday (for travel Friday afternoon) I bought a London to Birmingham First Class ticket around 20 hours before train departure for £16.50. It was busy, rammed through Standard. The lovely ambience, food + wine provided by West Coast was almost worth £16.50 by itself, without consideration of the actual price of travel (which was why I bought it - I didn't really need to make the journey!).

Honestly... who says Friday nights at Euston are busy?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What an old fashioned view - standard class is full of poor people and first class rich snobs that look down on others. Thank god we've moved on from the 1970's.

That type of view appertaining to other matters was still a type that was expressed during the run in to the last General Election by supporters of a certain party...:roll:
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There are some really good points being raised here. Thanks everybody that is contributing and voting.

Now that this thread poll has had the opportunity to be expressive of a large number of forum members, how do you feel now with the percentages in each of the four sections?

 

[Flamingo]

Now that this thread poll has had the opportunity to be expressive of a large number of forum members, how do you feel now with the percentages in each of the four sections?

I'm surprised that there is so much support for maintaining the status quo to be honest. I thought more people would have been in favour of removing First Class.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm surprised that there is so much support for maintaining the status quo to be honest. I thought more people would have been in favour of removing Standard Class.

No such option of removing standard class. Either you have a premium service that is a better experience than the norm, or you don't. You can't have all first class.

 

[Flamingo]

No such option of removing standard class. Either you have a premium service that is a better experience than the norm, or you don't. You can't have all first class.

edited!

 

[47802]

I'm surprised that there is so much support for maintaining the status quo to be honest. I thought more people would have been in favour of removing First Class.

Well as I have said I think you have to retain for major intercity routes, but I think on the busy commuter routes out of London and also probably TPX
it should go.

I also think where it is retained should be a consistent product with 2+1 seating, and free complimentary drinks as a minimum.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well as I have said I think you have to retain for major intercity routes, but I think on the busy commuter routes out of London and also probably TPX it should go.

In the heady days of a direct Manchester Airport to Newcastle TPX service, my good lady wife used to chair meetings in Durham on a bi-monthly/monthly/bi-monthly basis for a period of six years that covered her term of office in that position. Because we still have use of the consultancy dedicated parking space at Manchester Airport which was only a fairly short driving distance from our residence, she always used the First Class facility with its better style of seating layout in First Class (and complimentary refreshments) on what is quite a long journey on that particular journey which afforded her the opportunity to review all her papers for the coming meeting in comfort.

Do you not feel that TPX services of that length and those to both Glasgow and Edinburgh are worthy of First Class accommodation?

Incidentally, to hark back more years than I care to remember, but a matter that will be very well known to forum members of my age, when the Class 304 units were four-coach units with a small First Class accommodation section, on commuter service into Manchester, I confess to totally enjoying being a First Class travelling business member with fellow like-minded managers, as we tended to view this as a "Club Train-style" facility that once was available to those businessmen from Llandudno and Blackpool who were "on change" at the Manchester Royal Exchange.

 

[Aictos]

And of course the media, MPs, trade unions and public transport pressure groups would all support this blitz.

Especially when (inevitably) one of the PF'd Standard interlopers turns out to be a disabled Afghanistan veteran.

Your point being? Tad bang out of order assuming this, plus the last part of your statement smacks of libel!

Flamingo and others have time and time again spoken of experiences where standard class passengers insist there are no seats in standard class yet there is plenty of seats available.

If you don't have a first class ticket then you shouldn't be in first class end of and these standard class passengers who walk though first class just because they want to be the first ones off the train, there is a solution... Pay for a first class season instead.

I think a blitz would be a good idea, tough it might upset the delicate Reading commuters to name just one group but these who actually pay a great deal of money for their first class tickets would appreciate it.

 

[Senex]

Well as I have said I think you have to retain for major intercity routes, but I think on the busy commuter routes out of London and also probably TPX
it should go.

I also think where it is retained should be a consistent product with 2+1 seating, and free complimentary drinks as a minimum.

Why should it go on TPX but not on XC? They are closely comparable operations, and both have similar problems with short-distance passengers crowding inadequate trains. Why do you think it right for Birmingham to Newcastle or Scotland passengers to be offered first class but not for Manchester to Newcastle or Scotland or Liverpool to Newcastle people to get the same offer? Both TPX and XC have made a success of attracting business travellers to their first-class accommodation. Would they keep that traffic on their quite slow trains if the comfort offer were not available?

 

[yorksrob]

TPE has some longer distance journeys that are ideally suited for first class. The underlying problem is a lack of all accommodation which won't be solved by abolishing it.

 

[NSEFAN]

As an aside, I wonder if we shall see the return of 1st class to all Southern operated routes, since all variants of the class 377 appear to have some 1st class accommodation. Once the class 455s are withdrawn, I wonder if 1st class will become an option for suburban routes too, as a way of extracting more money from those who wish to have a better chance at getting a seat?

For commuter traffic I personally think that Chiltern's approach is the way forward. Traffic density is so high that you might as well get rid of 1st class and cram in as many people as possible. Only on intercity trains and long-distance journeys is it more appropriate to offer different classes of service on the same train, as fewer people will perhaps be commuters and have instead actively chosen the service, rather than being "forced" to because it's the "least bad" option as is often the case with commuter trains. This distinction is of course blurred, but I still think that intercity traffic is much more open to competition from other transport modes and hence needs to be able to provide an option for a premium service in order to get people off planes and out of their cars.

 

[Flamingo]

So, do intercity trains going to Reading count? It's a 30 minute commuter journey. Should First Class be declassified until after Reading?

 

[Bletchleyite]

TPE has some longer distance journeys that are ideally suited for first class. The underlying problem is a lack of all accommodation which won't be solved by abolishing it.

Solved, no, but helped. TPE should have First Class, but the 185s should be 5 car.
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So, do intercity trains going to Reading count? It's a 30 minute commuter journey. Should First Class be declassified until after Reading?

Ideally those trains should not carry commuters. They wouldn't if they were in Germany or France.

 

[Holly]

No such option of removing standard class. Either you have a premium service that is a better experience than the norm, or you don't. You can't have all first class.

Certainly you can if there is a will to.

Good experience for everyone. Standards of comfort for everyone should be first class. And the standard class coaches refurbished to first class levels of space and comfort.

And if this means modernising the railway to increase tph and buying more rolling stock then so be it.
After all the railways now cost the government each year many many more times what it used to cost under British Rail administration.

So tax the private railway companies out of existence and run directly operated railways spending the present huge amount of money. Not the pittance annual spend that was used to kill off the APT. Bring back Derby works.

 

[Realfish]

...First on VT should definitely be kept, although I did hear they were permanently declassifying coach G on the Scotland runs at some point...

According to Rail, this will be permanent by way of modification. Apparently VT have begun a programme of converting one FC coach (G) to standard on all of its Pendelinos, increasing standard class seating by 76 (to 370 per 9 car set, 520 per 11 car) and reducing FC by 46 (to 99, on 9 and 11 car sets).

I wonder if this will mean the end those cheap FC Advances on the WC? I hope not.

 

[yorksrob]

Certainly you can if there is a will to.

Good experience for everyone. Standards of comfort for everyone should be first class. And the standard class coaches refurbished to first class levels of space and comfort.

And if this means modernising the railway to increase tph and buying more rolling stock then so be it.
After all the railways now cost the government each year many many more times what it used to cost under British Rail administration.

So tax the private railway companies out of existence and run directly operated railways spending the present huge amount of money. Not the pittance annual spend that was used to kill off the APT. Bring back Derby works.

I like the idea of first class for everyone, but in reality it never seems to happen - certainly on all of the "classless" services I've been on.

It's a fact of life that some people want to be able to pay for a few extra comforts and a better travelling experience. Others want to get there as cheaply as possible. Personally, I don't think that you can adequately cater for both of these important markets with just one class.

That's not to say that standard should be allowed to deteriorate. As someone who spends the vast majority of his travelling time in standard, I believe we should still be demanding decent standards in standard, such as properly padded seating, wifi and sockets on longer distance services.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Apparently VT have begun a programme of converting one FC coach (G) to standard on all of its Pendelinos

Only the 9-cars; the 11 cars are going to keep four first class carriages.

As for "removing standard class", it'd be nice but impractical, given that standard class seats are already at a premium. Big seats in 2+1 layout in standard would be great, but as first class carriages tend to have half the seats of standard class carriages it wouldn't really work.

Where some TOCs have abolished first class (like Chiltern), the whole train has regressed to the standard class. It's good to have extra in standard like free wifi and plug sockets, though. One thing that might be a good change is that if, when you're travelling on expensive walk-up tickets, you are entitled to complimentary refreshments.

 

[Senex]

Ideally those trains should not carry commuters. They wouldn't if they were in Germany or France.

But then you'd need a pricing structure like the German one that keeps users of the Verkehrsverbund traffic off the InterCity services, and that sensible road seems one we are very reluctant to go down.

 

[bramling]

Is First Class more hassle than it's worth and has it outlived it's usefulness in this egalitarian utopia that is modern-day Britain?

Should all First Class seats be converted to high-density Standard Class on all trains to provide more seats for everybody? Not just the pampered few, where Standard Class passengers are crushed against the glass partition, pressing their noses against it to catch a glimpse of the high-life beyond that they can only aspire to.

Is the extra cost to TOC's justified in having extra staff to administer the First Class lounges and on-train? In these days post McNulty could those staff be better used elsewhere, or dispensed with completely and the savings passed on to the hard-pressed passenger?

I have used

Is it a useful environment, which is an extension of the office where business can be transacted on the move?

A relaxing treat for a leisure journey, allowing for a nicer beginning or end to a pleasure trip

Or it something that simply makes a daily commute more bearable with a chance to sit and get some refreshments brought to the seat while unwinding from the stress of a working day, so as to be relaxed on arriving home?

What do you think? Just say if you ever use First Class or not, so we all know where your view is coming from.

I have used and enjoyed First Class on occasions, however in recent years the experience has been devalued to the point where I'm not sure it's worth it. Basically because you can find yourself in the position of paying a lot extra in the hope of a relaxing journey, only to find it's just as busy as Standard, stuffed full of families from hell, on cheap advance tickets. Ditch these advances and it would be ok, otherwise there's no guarantee of a better journey experience unless we return to the days of compartments. The current trend of reducing first class provision on Intercity routes doesn't help either.

For commuter operations I think it creates more problems than it solves. On many trains the first class is similar or identical to standard, and with large amounts of DOO and minimal revenue enforcement, it tends to be full of standard passengers anyway.

 

[Starmill]

Only the 9-cars; the 11 cars are going to keep four first class carriages.

The case for adding F & U to all the Pendos seems strong - this could then have happened later to boost standard capacity. Seems silly doing it while there are still 9 car sets that could be 2 carriages longer...

 

[yorksrob]

I have used and enjoyed First Class on occasions, however in recent years the experience has been devalued to the point where I'm not sure it's worth it. Basically because you can find yourself in the position of paying a lot extra in the hope of a relaxing journey, only to find it's just as busy as Standard, stuffed full of families from hell, on cheap advance tickets. Ditch these advances and it would be ok, otherwise there's no guarantee of a better journey experience unless we return to the days of compartments. The current trend of reducing first class provision on Intercity routes doesn't help either.

For commuter operations I think it creates more problems than it solves. On many trains the first class is similar or identical to standard, and with large amounts of DOO and minimal revenue enforcement, it tends to be full of standard passengers anyway.

To be fair to TOC's, they do tend to generate a division between advanced first and the rest (by putting all the reservations in one carriage) and having a non-reserved carriage for the payers where possible (I've relocated to this on occasions).

With regard to commuter services, the TOC's seem to have the worst of all world's at the moment by committing the space but not having a distinctive offer. Make 1'st special again and bring back the compartments.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

From my point of view? Over the next 4 weeks, I think I have 6 trips to London and 2 to Inverness to make, and on 2 of those dates I have appointments at both ends of the country on the same day. If the space and ambience of First Class wasn't available I simple wouldn't be doing these - it's only because First Class is available to enable me to work, eat or rest while travelling that I can have such a busy diary.

 

[Realfish]

Only the 9-cars; the 11 cars are going to keep four first class carriages.

What you say seems sensible, I am told that on some peak services, FC does get extremely busy. The reputational damage, if FC passengers were required to stand, would be considerable.

That said, the 'Rail' story does seem misleading. It says that 'all 56 390's will have been modified by mid-2016', but given what you say it might be that 'Rail' have conflated the Coach G modification with the 'full interior refresh and deep clean' that the 11 car are getting.

 

[Bishopstone]

Your point being? Tad bang out of order assuming this, plus the last part of your statement smacks of libel!

My point being that a blitz on those who have the temerity to walk through First Class at Acton, or hang around in the First Class vestibules, is likely to be counter-productive in the social media age. Guaranteed, amongst those PF'd, will be someone who is (or claims to be) vulnerable on grounds of age, disability or pregnancy, who will claim to have been 'targeted' to protect the seclusion of the bankers in First Class.

Whether the blitz is justified or not will be lost in a sea of victimhood, and don't expect any politician, pressure group or trade unionist to weigh-in behind the profit chasing First Group.

If this is a significant problem, it should be addressed subtly by picking-off the worst offenders at a suitable time - ie not when the service is up the creek, or when it's proven that Standard is genuinely crowded. I suspect this is exactly what happens.

If it isn't a significant problem, there is no need to do anything.

Incidentally, my First Class commute involves 377 and 442 units where there is legitimate Standard walk-through traffic. I can't say I've ever arrived at London Bridge feeling this has ruined my day. This is public transport we are talking about.

Population pressure and growth in rail traffic will continue to test the limits of capacity in Standard Class, despite new stock due over the next five years. Goodwill towards First Class running at 75% (2+1) seated capacity, even in the high peaks, is going to become increasingly strained. I suggest those who value First Class travel and wish to see it continue need to show some sensitivity to changed circumstances, and be careful which battles they fight.

 

[yorksrob]

This issue of people walking through first class didn't exist when we had compartments and corridors. Just a thought.

 

[ainsworth74]

Listen, as much as you want it to be, the solution to everything isn't VEPs, CIGs and EPBs along with compartments

 

[455driver]

The case for adding F & U to all the Pendos seems strong - this could then have happened later to boost standard capacity. Seems silly doing it while there are still 9 car sets that could be 2 carriages longer...

I don't think any more Pendolino coaches could be built now as they wont pass some silly 'standard' which has been changed because somebody with a clipboard decided it was a good idea to add even more costs to the railway 'because they know best'!

 

[yorksrob]

Listen, as much as you want it to be, the solution to everything isn't VEPs, CIGs and EPBs along with compartments

You may say that, but in the words of a well known advertising campaign, "You know it makes sense".