Should Manchester have an orbital Tram route?

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Mattmatt

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I apologise for asking such random questions; but I have been reading posts on other forums where Manchester Council talks about the 2nd CC and there would be no where to put a third should the need arise etc. (my only answer would be along Deansgate etc) But has there ever been any thought about an orbital Tram route for those that have no desire to travel through Manchester itself? It would be Manchester's answer to the circle line?

My thought's would be... utilising part of the route is already in place i.e. the Chorlton line, - but if there was a jnc from St Werburgh's Road continuing along the old midland line, through Levenshulme etc. Granted there are some obstacles to overcome, i.e. the flats & sainsburys at Fallowfield, but easily fixed with a few compulsory purchase orders & moving the line over to the left a little, then it's plan sailing up to either Fairfield or possibly Gorton?

As for the north of the city, im not too sure of routes, but if anyone has any ideas....... I know this is probably pie in the sky stuff; but id be interested to know what people thought, as not everyone works in the city itself or has the desire to travel through the city, hence why the M60 was built. So please feel free to comment or even moan at me for even thinking of such a thing. :D
 
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WatcherZero

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There was a plan being advanced for orbital bus routes but then the funding cuts to both direct subsidy and the bus operator grant came and the plans had to be shelved.
 

tbtc

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I don't know how far out the line that the OP suggests is, but there are certainly a few potential destinations within a ring of the city centre.

e.g. Salford Shopping City - Salford Quays - University area - Sportcity/ COMS... plus a couple of hospitals (though not living that side of the Pennines I don't know which the main hospitals you'd want to target are).

The problem is, would any orbital route have anything like the passenger volumes that another central line would (considering that you'd need to build all new tracks, and not "piggy back" onto existing Metrolink routes for at least part)
 

Nym

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Yes...

Formed up of...

Ashton Under Lyne - Oldham
(Oldham - Rochdale)
Rochdale - Castleton - Bury
Bury - Bolton
(Tram Train or Heavy Rail Shuttles: Bolton - Wigan)
Bolton - Salford Reds - Trafford Park - Stretford - Wythenshawe - Manchester Airport
(Tram Train or Heavy Shuttles: Ashton Under Lyne - Stockport)

First lines to be built:
Bolton to Rochdale via Bury (Mainly intact trackbed, bay platform space at Bolton Station)
Bolton to Trafford Park (Linking in with Trafford Park Line) via: Royal Bolton Hospital, Walkden, Worsley and an extension from the Eccles Line.

Incorporate this into a re-build of Bolton station to have:

Platform 1 as is.
Platform 2 as is, improved access.
Platform 3 as is.
Platform 4 as is.
Platforms 5 & 6 added as Metrolink Bays
Platform 7 added back into the old car park (now to be service yard only, additional lift provided)
New car park on the World of Furniture site with additional foot passenger entrance on Bradshawgate/Manchester Road.
 

D841 Roebuck

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There used to be a Bolton-Bury-Rochdale-Oldham-Ashton-Stockport bus. Service 400.

Quite useful for spotting trips to Guide Bridge in 1980!

I think you'd now have to change at Rochdale and (probably) Ashton to make the same trip.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The funding requirements for such peripheral extensions to the Manchester Metrolink system would have to be given justification by central Government and would require TfGM to put a business case forward.

However, I see that new links to Port Salford and the extension of the system from Parrs Wood to Stockport would be more in line with the current thinking of TfGM.
 

Mattmatt

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Is it not the case that Manchester Metrolink is a system that always was designed to be having Manchester city centre as its central core with routes radiating outwards from this fulcrum point ?


That's my point, as more and more use the system, do you not think it will become a victim of it's success, with only two routes through the city centre.
Therefore, with an ever growing city and industrial areas being sited out of the city centre, Id argue that there is strong case for an orbital route or something akin to that, to avoid such congestion of everyone all vying to get through the city centre at peak times?

I don't think it will happen until such congestion happens (say in another 15 - 20 years), Big Bang #2?
 

Yew

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I don't think it will happen until such congestion happens (say in another 15 - 20 years), Big Bang #2?

Could the council/government? start purchasing land for a route now, and keeping it clear for easy construction of the line when its needed?

Of course a prerequisite of this is a government that cares beyond the next election......
 

Nym

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Doubtful, because of the lack of intergeneration between modes at the moment, no-one actually realises how many pax commute from the likes of say, Bolton to Salford Quays, Stockport to Trafford Park, or Castleton to The Valley...
 

Mattmatt

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I don't know how far out the line that the OP suggests is, but there are certainly a few potential destinations within a ring of the city centre.

e.g. Salford Shopping City - Salford Quays - University area - Sportcity/ COMS... plus a couple of hospitals (though not living that side of the Pennines I don't know which the main hospitals you'd want to target are).

The problem is, would any orbital route have anything like the passenger volumes that another central line would (considering that you'd need to build all new tracks, and not "piggy back" onto existing Metrolink routes for at least part)

I'm not so sure myself, as I suppose it would depend available routes, and best possible business case for compulsory purchase orders to make the routes viable.


Doubtful, because of the lack of intergeneration between modes at the moment, no-one actually realises how many pax commute from the likes of say, Bolton to Salford Quays, Stockport to Trafford Park, or Castleton to The Valley...

You'd hope that it went to major industrial points or significant residential areas that will gain from the most people using it? I would imagine there are studies out there from bus side of things from TfGM about non City Centre travel i.e people wishing to travel from say Abbey Hey to Firswood; If there was an orbital route, they could potentially jump on at Hyde Road & then travel metrolink to Firswood. For me not a week goes past without me having to go from Reddish to Chorlton, which if taken by current public transport routes, takes roughly about an hour, if i drive takes 15 mins, if the tram was there, I'd hazard a guess that it would take between 5-8 mins max. Come to think of it there would be info available from the last Census about non city centre commutes.
 

HSTEd

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Unfortunately there is no way to get a practical tram route into the Wilmslow Road Corridor, which is rather annoying considering how enormous the loading is.
Of course you would have to reregulate public transport in the GMPTE area to allow students to buy an integrated Unirider-derivative.
 

Nym

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Would you not say that the Wilmslow Road corridor is already more than adequately served by the existing mode of public transport.

No, its gone beyond saturation to the point of stupidity because of the lack of regulation, you shouldn't have that many bus routes going down there when Cambridge Street and Princess Road / Brook Street / Upper Brook Street have next to none.

I've seen something like 30 buses /10mins at some points...!
 

IanXC

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The funding requirements for such peripheral extensions to the Manchester Metrolink system would have to be given justification by central Government and would require TfGM to put a business case forward.

Doesn't the Greater Manchester Combined Authority have total control of transport spending for its area?

 

WatcherZero

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Not total, They still have to apply to Dft for investment funds on a per-project basis.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Not total, They still have to apply to Dft for investment funds on a per-project basis.

Indeed you are most clear with your clarification on this matter. Has anyone ever seen any divergence from the current Manchester Metrolink project developments to show a move away to an area peripheral system that connects exterior satellite towns by Metrolink rather than to use Manchester city centre as a fulcrum point when project expansion is mooted. The Second City Crossing is reinforcement of this specific point.

We really have to be totally and utterly realistic with regard to future project finance to actually pay for any future expansion to the Manchester Metrolink system. Look at the Manchester Metrolink stated view on how the Port Salford future line should be funded....or not.
 

snail

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Doubtful, because of the lack of intergeneration between modes at the moment, no-one actually realises how many pax commute from the likes of say, Bolton to Salford Quays, Stockport to Trafford Park, or Castleton to The Valley...
Do you have numbers? Would it be enough to make an orbital route profitable?

The only comparable system I can think of is the London Overground, where the North London/East London Lines do a pretty good job of keeping people out of Zone 1 (Shoreditch excepted), but has Manchester the same kind of people flows?
 

Nym

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GM Has some rather frequent bus routes in orbital directions from major population centres, there are also a lot of passengers (no, I don't have numbers, and not many people do thanks to PTE tickets not accounting for these journies and no counters being placed on platforms) that potentially travel from one outlying area to another that would be better served direct by tram, where bus times are not competative, such as Rochdale - Bolton, Bolton - Trafford Park (served by sloooowwwww buses), or Stockport - Trafford Park.
 

Mattmatt

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GM Has some rather frequent bus routes in orbital directions from major population centres, there are also a lot of passengers (no, I don't have numbers, and not many people do thanks to PTE tickets not accounting for these journies and no counters being placed on platforms) that potentially travel from one outlying area to another that would be better served direct by tram, where bus times are not competative, such as Rochdale - Bolton, Bolton - Trafford Park (served by sloooowwwww buses), or Stockport - Trafford Park.

Surely there must be some comparative data from non Manchester centric travel, as the layman here I would thought TfGM would have some form of data from the very least Bus usage on non city centre routes, as pointed out above i.e. Bolton - Roachdale. Or even the Census data of people travelling to work. Equally it would be quite a poor move from TfGM to put all their eggs on one basket & expect everyone to travel through one urban point, as it will naturally become congested.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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It was an example, from "Castleton, Rochdale" to "The Valley, Bolton"....

I know a fair few peeps live round Rochdale and work at Warburtons...

Apologies for the football "word association" reference to The Valley, as I was unaware of the one that you had in mind....Exactly where in Bolton is it?

With regard to the Rochdale people who work at Warburtons, I should imagine that a good number of these use a car rather than public transport to travel to work.
 

Nym

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Apologies for the football "word association" reference to The Valley, as I was unaware of the one that you had in mind....Exactly where in Bolton is it?

With regard to the Rochdale people who work at Warburtons, I should imagine that a good number of these use a car rather than public transport to travel to work.

They all drive, public transport is non existent to the valley... That is here...

Is all the industrial bits off of Waters Meeting Road and up to the A666 Blackburn Road, including Britannia Way and Union Road.

Also, detailed census data isn't made available until next year, and relies on people telling the truth and the data being properly analysed. (This cannot always be relied on)
 

WatcherZero

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Surely there must be some comparative data from non Manchester centric travel, as the layman here I would thought TfGM would have some form of data from the very least Bus usage on non city centre routes, as pointed out above i.e. Bolton - Roachdale. Or even the Census data of people travelling to work. Equally it would be quite a poor move from TfGM to put all their eggs on one basket & expect everyone to travel through one urban point, as it will naturally become congested.

Theres some interesting stuff on bus and roads in LTP3 (for example the orbital Motorway seems to be doing its job very well if a bit congested) but I think it was LTP2 which had a diagram showing travel patterns.
 

jonesy3001

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There used to be a Bolton-Bury-Rochdale-Oldham-Ashton-Stockport bus. Service 400.

Quite useful for spotting trips to Guide Bridge in 1980!

I think you'd now have to change at Rochdale and (probably) Ashton to make the same trip.

The service was de-registered due too lack of passengers when the M60 between oldham and stockport was opened, there was talk of it coming back with the kickstart programme but it was called off by the government now its just change after change now on the buses, unless you catch the train.

409 Ashton-Oldham-Rochdale(400)
471 Rochdale-Bury-Bolton(400)
 
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krisk

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Yes, fantastic idea, some metrolink journeys such as Oldham to Ashton wont be worth doing as its only 15 mins on the 409 bus.

Like the idea of converting Victoria to Ashton and Stalybridge to ML too with some reopening along the way, a station for Miles Platting, Phillips Park, Culcheth then onto Ashton

If there was a way of linking lines then I'm all for it
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Like the idea of converting Victoria to Ashton and Stalybridge to ML too with some reopening along the way, a station for Miles Platting, Phillips Park, Culcheth then onto Ashton

The existing rail route from Miles Platting junction to Ashton under Lyne is already earmarked for extra rail services that will be put into operation once the Ordsall Chord projected is completed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The service was de-registered due too lack of passengers when the M60 between oldham and stockport was opened, there was talk of it coming back with the kickstart programme but it was called off by the government now its just change after change now on the buses, unless you catch the train.

409 Ashton-Oldham-Rochdale(400)
471 Rochdale-Bury-Bolton(400)

Do not forget the attempt to make a success of the 401 route from Middleton to Stockport....then of the reasons why this town-connect service also met its demise.
 

snail

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Like the idea of converting Victoria to Ashton and Stalybridge to ML too with some reopening along the way, a station for Miles Platting, Phillips Park, Culcheth then onto Ashton
Unlikely. If Metrolink gets to Stalybridge it will be as an extension from the Ashton terminus. Much more practical as it serves the east side of Ashton.
 

Mutant Lemming

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Should Manchester be draining all the cash for transport projects in the North-West ?
There are other towns & cities
 
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