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Should Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) be built via Bradford and what other upgrades should occur?

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Glenn1969

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Glenn1969

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It needs rebuilding in a straight line and elimination of the time penalty caused by everything having to reverse at Bradford Interchange as well. It adds at least 10 minutes to Leeds- Halifax/Calder Valley/Rochdale journeys
 

SuperNova

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I think the opposite. The line via Bradford is more in need of transformation which can only be achieved by new build
Here's the problem with that. There was already rumours that Bradford wouldn't get a city centre station due to sheer cost of it - despite the protests of the City Council and TfN. A parkway station was more likely and with that questions should be raised.

The via Huddersfield route seems a lot more practical, especially as if it becomes a Hub station with the potential of fast services into Wakefield. The question is, could there be line enhancement on the Calder Valley to offset this decision should it be true? Can Bradford to Leeds journey time be reduced, could there be a new spur between Huddersfield and Bradford utilising the old route via Bailiff Bridge? Lets face it - it's most likely true as are most leaks from the government
 

Purple Orange

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It needs rebuilding in a straight line and elimination of the time penalty caused by everything having to reverse at Bradford Interchange as well. It adds at least 10 minutes to Leeds- Halifax/Calder Valley/Rochdale journeys

A new build line wouldn’t do anything for Halifax or Rochdale services.

Here's the problem with that. There was already rumours that Bradford wouldn't get a city centre station due to sheer cost of it - despite the protests of the City Council and TfN. A parkway station was more likely and with that questions should be raised.

The via Huddersfield route seems a lot more practical, especially as if it becomes a Hub station with the potential of fast services into Wakefield. The question is, could there be line enhancement on the Calder Valley to offset this decision should it be true? Can Bradford to Leeds journey time be reduced, could there be a new spur between Huddersfield and Bradford utilising the old route via Bailiff Bridge? Lets face it - it's most likely true as are most leaks from the government

If it is a hybrid line with TRU constituting of some new build and upgrades, it will obviously accelerate delivery too.
 

Glenn1969

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The plan was for Calder Valley services to be sped up by also serving the new station which I believe would have meant the closure of the existing Interchange station. What we have in front of now is just TRU with no true new build at all unless I missed something
 

SuperNova

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The plan was for Calder Valley services to be sped up by also serving the new station which I believe would have meant the closure of the existing Interchange station. What we have in front of now is just TRU with no true new build at all unless I missed something
There was never any guarantee that a new build city centre station would exist, despite Bradford City Council's plans. AS the NPR route hadn't even been agreed upon.
 

Purple Orange

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The plan was for Calder Valley services to be sped up by also serving the new station which I believe would have meant the closure of the existing Interchange station. What we have in front of now is just TRU with no true new build at all unless I missed something

The flip side of this is that the services via Huddersfield wouldn’t gain much either. This was always a situation where it was either Bradford or Huddersfield and NPR will become a hybrid new-build/upgrade line, which still satisfies the aim of NPR which is to improve journey times & frequencies between Leeds & Manchester.
 

Glenn1969

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My point is the route via Huddersfield already exists so can't be NPR because it isn't actually new build. It's TRU- an upgrade of the existing line. True transformation for all West Yorkshire rail users needs both to happen. Which was clearly never going to happen because of the cost
 

Purple Orange

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My point is the route via Huddersfield already exists so can't be NPR because it isn't actually new build. It's TRU- an upgrade of the existing line. True transformation for all West Yorkshire rail users needs both to happen. Which was clearly never going to happen because of the cost

NPR was never explicitly defined like that.
 

Bald Rick

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What we have in front of now is just TRU with no true new build at all unless I missed something

Yes you have missed something. Possibly because it hasn’t been made public!

However I would regard the Huddersfield - Ravensthorpe section as very much new build; it just happens to be alongside the existing line (almost certainly as that’s the easiest place to build it).
 

Glenn1969

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One mentioned in all their documents and on quite a few of their press statements. I see a fair few of them because I'm subscribed to their newsletters

Yes you have missed something. Possibly because it hasn’t been made public!

However I would regard the Huddersfield - Ravensthorpe section as very much new build; it just happens to be alongside the existing line (almost certainly as that’s the easiest place to build it).
I view it as replacing the existing line (four tracks instead of two)
 

Purple Orange

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One mentioned in all their documents and on quite a few of their press statements. I see a fair few of them because I'm subscribed to their newsletters

Northern Powerhouse Rail is a whole network of lines, including Liverpool-Manchester, which could be new build between Warrington & Lime Street with a new terminus in Liverpool, or it can utilise the WCML in to Lime Street as it is. Plans will change and we will see future documents refer to the via Huddersfield line. The whole point was to improve journey times between the cities, which the via Huddersfield option does.
 

Purple Orange

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"The cities" includes Bradford, not Huddersfield

Bradford has always been secondary to the plans. NPR started life as a means of improving journey times in to Manchester and as far as the Leeds-Manchester leg is concerned, it is irrelevant whether it is via Huddersfield or via Bradford. I’m afraid to say, this was on the cards for a very long time. It wasn’t that long ago where there was a broad plan for the £17bn line via Bradford or a £13bn line via Huddersfield, which was meant to be a combination of new build and upgrades.

Now if there is no new-build at all between Manchester & Huddersfield, then I’d agree NPR is just Trans Pennine Route Upgrade (TRU), but it’s purpose was to facilitate fast services between Leeds & Manchester via any route.
 

SuperNova

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"The cities" includes Bradford, not Huddersfield
Glenn, the world doesn't revolve around Bradford. The city centre station was never a guarantee and as previously mentioned the announcement was politicking before the route was even known to them.
I view it as replacing the existing line (four tracks instead of two)
Complete rebuilds of stations, compulsory purchases of houses and increasing line speed to 100mph isn't just replacing the existing line.
Yes it was. At least by TfN
As you well know, TfN have as much influence as you or I do. They're a talking shop and the whole Northern Powerhouse has effectively meant nothing since George Osborne was chancellor.
Now if there is no new-build at all between Manchester & Huddersfield, then I’d agree NPR is just Trans Pennine Route Upgrade (TRU), but it’s purpose was to facilitate fast services between Leeds & Manchester via any route.
There simply has to be a new line between Manchester and Huddersfield, limited speeds west of Huddersfield facilitate that.
 

Glenn1969

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My point is both routes need improving and the Calder Valley route is arguably more in need of transformation because the Bradford terminus dead end needs eliminating. But how do you do it and could there be an NPR Phase 2 in the 2030s so the benefits are felt by all rail users not just those on the main line direct route?
 

Purple Orange

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My point is both routes need improving and the Calder Valley route is arguably more in need of transformation because the Bradford terminus dead end needs eliminating. But how do you do it and could there be an NPR Phase 2 in the 2030s so the benefits are felt by all rail users not just those on the main line direct route?
Yeah both need improving. However I reckon that the Caldervalley route will be the CLC equivalent of the Leeds-Manchester routes, with the main line getting electrified plus upgrades and new-build sections, while the Calder Valley will end up waiting.
 

YorksLad12

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At this point I'm more interested in the "compulsory purchase of housing" and the "new Huddersfield hub" which weren't part of TRU as I understod it! Okay, I know there's some housing very near the line (Mossley?) but no-one mentioned compulsory purchase, even on here.
 

HSTEd

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So the transformative effects of a new line are replaced with a lousy upgrade of an inadequate, victorian, railway that will make negligible difference to the passenger experience, operational costs or anything else for that matter.

What a wonderful advert for the new world Boris wishes to create.
 

edwin_m

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My point is both routes need improving and the Calder Valley route is arguably more in need of transformation because the Bradford terminus dead end needs eliminating. But how do you do it and could there be an NPR Phase 2 in the 2030s so the benefits are felt by all rail users not just those on the main line direct route?
The Bradford dead-end terminus is one of the main reasons the Calder Valley route exists, because it can serve the centre of Bradford. Are you proposing replacement by a Parkway, or the several miles of tunnel needed to serve an underground station in the centre (due to its low elevation relative to the surroundings)? That would be a fairly large cost just to save a few minutes for Halifax-Leeds (stations further west can access Leeds more quickly via Dewsbury). If it isn't part of the main Manchester-Leeds route, it would be very difficult to justify this cost.
 

SuperNova

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At this point I'm more interested in the "compulsory purchase of housing" and the "new Huddersfield hub" which weren't part of TRU as I understod it! Okay, I know there's some housing very near the line (Mossley?) but no-one mentioned compulsory purchase, even on here.
The extent of NPR route was never detailed though. And I can't see it going through Mossley. It'll have to be a new line between Huddersfield and Manchester.
So the transformative effects of a new line are replaced with a lousy upgrade of an inadequate, victorian, railway that will make negligible difference to the passenger experience, operational costs or anything else for that matter.

What a wonderful advert for the new world Boris wishes to create.
Again, until the full route is shown, this is a misguided view. Given back in November, Yorkshire Post were reporting that Bradford was set to miss out and the Huddersfield route would cost circa £13bn, it's wrong to assume that it is just an upgrade. The issues around 45mph curve at Marsden and the limit of 65mph onwards to Stalybridge can't be rectified so there would need to be new infrastructure between Huddersfield and Manchester.
 

Glenn1969

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I would take a Parkway if that is what it takes. Not just a few minutes either given that I think the current layout incurs a 10 minute time penalty (2/3 minutes in both directions from Mill Lane to Interchange plus a 4 minute dwell to allow the crew to change ends)
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The Express (ugh!) is, I think, making links that don't exist except in the Westminster bubble.
I don't doubt there are big decisions that need to be made about NPR and its relationship to the existing "Dingle" (Diggle!) route.
HS3 in its "all new/via Bradford" guise might well be considered unaffordable in the current climate.

But to lay it at the door of the HS2 Nimbys in Chesham & Amersham seems far-fetched.
HS2 has all-party (bar the Greens and UKIP) support, and is proceeding whatever Chiltern MPs might think.
There might be local issues over construction which are hard to judge from a distance, but it would have been the same for a motorway (and was with the M40).
Taxpayers are already funding lengthy tunnels to avoid disturbing the leafy Chiltern lanes.
As I understand it, it's the proposed relaxation of planning regulations on housing which is the main debate in the area, not how to stop HS2.
There is also hostility to the "levelling-up" agenda as it plainly means taking money/priority away from prosperous southern areas.
 

snowball

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A new build line wouldn’t do anything for Halifax or Rochdale services.
A lot of us thought that TfN's preference was for a line leaving Manchester via the corridor of the existing Rochdale line as far as Littleborough, where it would enter a new long tunnel, so I think it would have benefited Rochdale at least. Some possible alignments on the eastern side might have benefited Haliax too.
 

Bald Rick

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A lot of us thought that TfN's preference was for a line leaving Manchester via the corridor of the existing Rochdale line as far as Littleborough, where it would enter a new long tunnel, so I think it would have benefited Rochdale at least. Some possible alignments on the eastern side might have benefited Haliax too.

Any options going that way would not have had trains calling at Rochdale or Halifax

I view it as replacing the existing line (four tracks instead of two)

That’s fine, and it’s your view. However, that doesn’t mean it’s right. NR are (subject to being granted permission) going to build a new railway between Huddersfield and Ravensthorpe.
 

Glenn1969

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So how much more capacity will it provide? And how will existing rail users benefit? (WYCA's 2040 mass transit plan was based on there being a new build NPR via Bradford as well as TRU to transform connectivity for the whole county not just those lucky enough to be on the main line)
 
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