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Should Penalty Fares be abolished?

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MotCO

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This other thread discusses the overcharging of passengers:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-fares-thousands-of-passengers-overcharged.189482/

What I am trying to get my head round is why do we need Penalty Fares at all. Most people should understand that you need to buy a train ticket to travel, and that if they deliberately buy the wrong ticket or do not have a ticket, then they stand a chance of being caught and penalised. Why isn't the penalty (i.e. facing a by-law or RORA prosecution) standardised across the country? This would be easier for Joe Public to understand.

Therefore, should Penalty Fares be abolished, replaced by a standard process of prosecuction where an action is deemed to be deliberate, and discretion for honest mistakes?
 
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Bletchleyite

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No, I would go the opposite way - decriminalise fare evasion (a regular fraud charge could be used for cases of falsification and other similar serious wilful fraud) and enforce only by way of Penalty Fares, with a slightly increased fee, along this sort of model:

£40 if paid quickly, only offered for first instance per rolling 12 month period
£80 standard
£120 if delayed payment
Appealing delays payment
Appropriate walk-up fare to be paid on top

TOCs seriously misuse the Byelaws/RoRA and it is my view that they are not responsible enough to hold that right. Things are much more sensible in Scotland where private prosecutions do not work well.
 

Harpers Tate

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Another approach might be to wholly change the psychology surrounding "buy before you board". It would (at least as far as "regulated fares" are concerned) presumably need government consent.

The fare for a given journey and passenger (whatever it may be, whatever ticket type, whatever railcard etc.) starting from a staffed or TVM equipped station is (say) £25.
You can get a (large enough to matter - say 50%) discount by buying before you board. From a TVM or Mobile or ticket office, the same journey/ticket type/etc. costs £12.50.

All fares from unstaffed/unequipped stations are pitched at the "discounted" level wherever you buy them.
 

Starmill

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Without a shadow of a doubt. The train companies have proven themselves untrustworthy of special legal powers. 'Fare evasion' should be decriminalised entirely throughout the whole UK and all Penalty Fares schemes scrapped. If someone uses (for example) a fake ticket, this can be dealt with under existing fraud charges.

The penalty for buying onboard where you should have done so before boarding would simply be the charging of the full fare - and the requirement to wait in the queue until you've paid this. More onboard ticket inspectors are the best solution to revenue protection. This would probably be more efficient too than spending vast amounts of money on ticket machines at small stations used by a handful of daily passengers.

Incidentally, all of this seems to work just fine in Scotland.
 

furlong

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The train companies have proven themselves untrustworthy of special legal powers

What we've seen today is only the tip of the iceberg. There should be a judicial inquiry, and I wouldn't expect any party to come out of it particularly well - train companies, RDG, ORR, DfT, Ombudsman, PF appeals bodies, Transport Focus, London Travelwatch, the courts etc. Just the size of that list reveals a major part of the problem.
 

tarq

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Therefore, should Penalty Fares be abolished, replaced by a standard process of prosecuction where an action is deemed to be deliberate, and discretion for honest mistakes?

I think people misinterpret penalty fare for ‘fine’. I think it needs to be rebranded the ‘on-board fare’. Perhaps make the ‘on-board fare’ double the ‘buy-beyond-you-board’ fare.

Everyone who prefers to buy on board will automatically pay the ‘on-board fare’, whereas if you’ve been able to pre-purchase using telesales, online, ticket vending machine or smart card you save half your fare.

With my energy bills, if I don’t pay by direct debit, I’m not eligible for a cheaper tariff.

We shouldn’t penalise people but we should reward them for buying before they board.
 

AlterEgo

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No, I would go the opposite way - decriminalise fare evasion (a regular fraud charge could be used for cases of falsification and other similar serious wilful fraud) and enforce only by way of Penalty Fares, with a slightly increased fee, along this sort of model:

£40 if paid quickly, only offered for first instance per rolling 12 month period
£80 standard
£120 if delayed payment
Appealing delays payment
Appropriate walk-up fare to be paid on top

TOCs seriously misuse the Byelaws/RoRA and it is my view that they are not responsible enough to hold that right. Things are much more sensible in Scotland where private prosecutions do not work well.

I share your view.

I also share @furlong's thoughts about how broken the system is. It is fundamentally not working for passengers and must change.
 

Tetchytyke

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The train companies have proven themselves untrustworthy of special legal powers.

Absolutely. If Northern had persisted with Penalty Fakes they, ironically, wouldn't be in this position, which shows just how open to abuse the current rules are. It's also why some TOCs don't want to go down the official PF route, instead getting bottom feeders like Transport Investigations to do their dirty work. The incentives are all wrong.

That said, I'm not sure decriminalisation would solve everything. Parking tickets were decriminalised and local authority collection practices for parking tickets are now some of the nastiest around; £420, and aggressive bailiffs collecting it, for an unpaid ticket is about the going rate. And don't expect to negotiate. TfL are the nastiest of the lot for traffic charge collection; letting them use the same tactics for railway charges would be a regressive step.

I've always said the messaging on the railway is all garbled. For most of my life "paytrains" have been the in thing, because they saved the industry a lot of money. But now paying on board is evil and terrible and costs the industry money. Hmm.
 

furlong

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Absolutely. If Northern had persisted with Penalty Fakes they, ironically, wouldn't be in this position, which shows just how open to abuse the current rules are.

But with 'Penalty Fakes' they may be putting themselves at risk of a different problem that would cost them far more money, if the courts ever rule that the current form of Byelaw 18 is ultra vires (discussed previously on other forum threads). I hope they (or RDG) obtained a legal opinion on that matter before going down that route. The current Penalty Fares problems are entirely of their own making for accepting a franchise agreement then picking and choosing which bits of the regulations they would adhere to and which they would ignore (signage is still largely non-compliant I would suggest).

I've always said the messaging on the railway is all garbled. For most of my life "paytrains" have been the in thing, because they saved the industry a lot of money. But now paying on board is evil and terrible and costs the industry money. Hmm.

Exactly - it may need an independent inquiry (with political pressure to force the DfT to act). One part to look back at what's been going on and provide remedies, and one part to make proposals for a revamp. The parties involved have to be honest and confront the issues head-on and in a public debate, rather than conveniently pretending they don't exist and lobbying government in secret or with dumbed-down public "consultations", and be open to new ideas and ideas borrowed from other railways around the world. Things like, the diminishing role of cash and vouchers, the inconsistency of the application of the current system where some staff say nothing and just sell a normal ticket, the slowness and difficulty of use of today's ticket machines (e.g. compared to the speed and availability of PERTIS which the regulations assumed), being fair when there are queues, putting machines on trains, charging an additional fee for buying on board, changing to a simple higher (perhaps banded) fixed penalty instead of the complicated rules that depend on the fare etc. etc.
 
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Hadders

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There does need to be a deterrent to ticketless travel and there are certainly attractions to the Strathclyde model.

However the current scheme, although not without its faults could work if staff were properly trained and performance monitored. Sadly there appears to be no desire to do this.
 

js1000

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Therefore, should Penalty Fares be abolished, replaced by a standard process of prosecuction where an action is deemed to be deliberate, and discretion for honest mistakes?
A 'standard process of prosecution'? And one that would be eye-wateringly expensive at that! Simply unworkable.

I would prefer a tiered system of fines with a 'three strikes' rule.

No ticket = Fare notice but passenger to respond with letter with reasonable explanation and kept as a record of events
No ticket again within 12 month period = £80 fine
Multiple instances of no ticket within a 12 month period = Prosecution

The £20 penalty fare system is too generous to train operating companies and despite them being legally obligated to apply discretion this is rarely applied. Far too often honest passengers who have genuinely been unable to buy a ticket due to closed ticket office or broken ticket machine are caught in the crossfire
 

Flying Snail

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A 'standard process of prosecution'? And one that would be eye-wateringly expensive at that! Simply unworkable.

I would prefer a tiered system of fines with a 'three strikes' rule.

No ticket = Fare notice but passenger to respond with letter with reasonable explanation and kept as a record of events
No ticket again within 12 month period = £80 fine
Multiple instances of no ticket within a 12 month period = Prosecution

The £20 penalty fare system is too generous to train operating companies and despite them being legally obligated to apply discretion this is rarely applied. Far too often honest passengers who have genuinely been unable to buy a ticket due to closed ticket office or broken ticket machine are caught in the crossfire

That's great in theory but the practicalities of administering it is rather different. The scumbags first line of defence is lying about who they are, are frontline staff going to be resourced (double/triple crewed and BTP in attendance) to deal with having to extract this info from a large number of uncooperatve passengers?
 

js1000

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That's great in theory but the practicalities of administering it is rather different. The scumbags first line of defence is lying about who they are, are frontline staff going to be resourced (double/triple crewed and BTP in attendance) to deal with having to extract this info from a large number of uncooperatve passengers?
What's the difference though? They can already lie when asked for details upon being issued with a penalty fare.
 

Flying Snail

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But that's an issue now as well.

Indeed it is, so coming up with a new system based on maintaining a database of offenders who have every incentive to give false details is pointless, it'll be abused by the determined criminals and mainly catch the unwary and dopes as currently happens.
 

ricoblade

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This other thread discusses the overcharging of passengers:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-fares-thousands-of-passengers-overcharged.189482/

What I am trying to get my head round is why do we need Penalty Fares at all. Most people should understand that you need to buy a train ticket to travel, and that if they deliberately buy the wrong ticket or do not have a ticket, then they stand a chance of being caught and penalised. Why isn't the penalty (i.e. facing a by-law or RORA prosecution) standardised across the country? This would be easier for Joe Public to understand.

Therefore, should Penalty Fares be abolished, replaced by a standard process of prosecuction where an action is deemed to be deliberate, and discretion for honest mistakes?

At least the message is getting through (from a sample size of one this Saturday!). Two 20-something lads at Retford and one stopped the other going directly to the platform (no barriers), saying "you have to get a ticket before you get on the train now otherwise you get a fine".
 

PeterC

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Another approach might be to wholly change the psychology surrounding "buy before you board". It would (at least as far as "regulated fares" are concerned) presumably need government consent.

The fare for a given journey and passenger (whatever it may be, whatever ticket type, whatever railcard etc.) starting from a staffed or TVM equipped station is (say) £25.
You can get a (large enough to matter - say 50%) discount by buying before you board. From a TVM or Mobile or ticket office, the same journey/ticket type/etc. costs £12.50.

All fares from unstaffed/unequipped stations are pitched at the "discounted" level wherever you buy them.
British Rail used to do this with the Waterloo and City Line. I am not sure of the numbers after all these years, I think the "fare" was something liike £2 reduced to around 9d (a little under 4p for the younger generation) if paid in advance.
 

Aictos

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I disagree, why should fare paying passengers subsidy those who have no intention of buying a ticket?

The current system isn’t perfect but it’s fine as it is.
 

Jocques

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If your train is leaving in two minutes and there's a massive queue, there should be an option for a ticket inspector to give a form, like an IOU. A standard one that says the ticket inspector agrees there wasn't enough time to purchase a ticket, and it can be bought on board or at the end of the journey at the barrier. If you don't have one of those or a valid ticket, that's where penalties etc should be enforced. Obviously if the station is staffed, though.

Otherwise, BUY BEFORE YOU BOARD. There really isn't a reason not to unless you're chancing it and hoping for a free ride. And people who do that are pretty scummy.
 

sheff1

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Otherwise, BUY BEFORE YOU BOARD. There really isn't a reason not to unless you're chancing it and hoping for a free ride. And people who do that are pretty scummy.

Yes, there isn't A reason. There are many justifiable reasons which have been explained on here many times.
 

Hadders

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If your train is leaving in two minutes and there's a massive queue, there should be an option for a ticket inspector to give a form, like an IOU. A standard one that says the ticket inspector agrees there wasn't enough time to purchase a ticket, and it can be bought on board or at the end of the journey at the barrier. If you don't have one of those or a valid ticket, that's where penalties etc should be enforced. Obviously if the station is staffed, though.

Otherwise, BUY BEFORE YOU BOARD. There really isn't a reason not to unless you're chancing it and hoping for a free ride. And people who do that are pretty scummy.

A good idea. But what happens at unstaffed stations? Or a station where there’s a ticket office but no ticket inspectors (or barrier attendants which is what I think you meant).
 

Jocques

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A good idea. But what happens at unstaffed stations? Or a station where there’s a ticket office but no ticket inspectors (or barrier attendants which is what I think you meant).

I wasn't sure if 'barrier attendant' was the actual job title, but you got what I meant! My idea only really works for the bigger stations, obviously it wouldn't be enforceable elsewhere, but it's a start.
 

cuccir

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I don't think we need elaborate systems with forms etc. Bletchleyite's post 2 more or less nails it. Replace existing legislation with something that would criminalise (1) persistent fare evasion and (2) making and distributing fake tickets. The rest can be dealt with via penalty fares or under existing other laws.
 
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