Should people be allowed to stand in 1st class on very crowded services.

[sefton]

While obviously there's a variation between different services, where there are going to be passengers left on the platform does anyone know if it would generally be cheaper for a TOC to declassify first and refund the first class ticket holders, or to pay delay repay to the people left on the platform?

Or pay for the delay caused to other services because the overcrowded train was not able to leave on time - very likely if the train staff don't declassify first class and there are queues of people asking "can you move down" and being told "no" whilst there is plenty of room in first.

 

[AntonyL]

Hi all,
I have just come off a cross country service running through Leeds and Sheffield in the rush hour. The train was crammed full and in the end the staff allowed non first class passengers to stand in the first class carriage. None of them sat (so there were a couple of empty seats for any extra first class passenger who might join the train). The staff said first was not declassified. I think their decision was partially sparked by trying to get a wheelchair passenger onto the train!
While not ideal, it did seem like the fairest compromise they could manage. The train manager announced that he had informed his bosses about the overcrowding on the train and that it was not acceptable...
The train was also getting later and later at each station. The blame seems to fall either on the operators for allowing short distance commuters onto a long distance train (and not providing enough local services) or on XC for providing 4-car voyagers which are totally incapable of coping with the loads placed on them.
Just my thoughts as a first class ticket holder on one particular service.

 

[Kite159]

The simplest solution to the Wakefield problem is for XC to omit the Wakefield call.

Although that won't help with the crowding from Leeds - Sheffield as XC are the fastest service between those two places.

 

[BMIFlyer]

In the case of TPE I think they should allow it a lot more often. I don't see why half a carriage in a three car unit should be given up for fifteen people when you could fit three times as many people in there. Just save the actual seats for passengers, and let people in standard stand, or something.

Official TPE policy is that we do not declassify 1st and has been that way for quite some time now.

First class is very popular at TPE especially during rush hour to the extent that we occasionally have up 10 first class ticket holders standing in 1st or sitting in standard on certain trains.

At least on the new fleets the first class carriage will be a full carriage with only one entrance door, so no excuses for anyone to say "I didn't realise it was 1st class" as it is very well signed on the entrance doors and the vestibule to seating area glass door as well.

 

[BMIFlyer]

The simplest solution to the Wakefield problem is for XC to omit the Wakefield call.

Although that won't help with the crowding from Leeds - Sheffield as XC are the fastest service between those two places.

A good example of this is TPE removing the stop at Wigan on the Scotland trains - it cut down the overcrowding massively especially on certain trains.

 

[B&I]

What's that sound ? Why it's me playing the world's smallest violin as I think about the plight of first class ticket holders forced to share their rarified air with the plebians so that people don't get left on platforms. Why do they feel that the premiums they pay entitle them to special treatment in any circumstances, but oridnary folk shouldn't be able to expect to actually travel on the services they have bought tickets for ?

 

[B&I]

Official TPE policy is that we do not declassify 1st and has been that way for quite some time now.

First class is very popular at TPE especially during rush hour to the extent that we occasionally have up 10 first class ticket holders standing in 1st or sitting in standard on certain trains.

At least on the new fleets the first class carriage will be a full carriage with only one entrance door, so no excuses for anyone to say "I didn't realise it was 1st class" as it is very well signed on the entrance doors and the vestibule to seating area glass door as well.

That comes as a surprise to me. I've never seen more than 5 people in a TPE first class segment, possibly including the guard and the trolleyperson, as I pass through on my way to and from the bog (it not yet being mandatory for standard ticket holders to reach the end khazi by way of the roof)

 

[Kite159]

Isn't First Class only popular at peak times on TPE due to the commuters paying a premium for a better chance of a seat, like they do on some TOCs in the South East

TPE should be standard class only on the tiny 185s run services

 

[BMIFlyer]

Isn't First Class only popular at peak times on TPE due to the commuters paying a premium for a better chance of a seat

Nope

TPE should be standard class only on the tiny 185s run services

I do not agree, sorry.

 

[Jonfun]

What's that sound ? Why it's me playing the world's smallest violin as I think about the plight of first class ticket holders forced to share their rarified air with the plebians so that people don't get left on platforms. Why do they feel that the premiums they pay entitle them to special treatment in any circumstances, but oridnary folk shouldn't be able to expect ro actually travel on the services they have bought tickets for ?

Because that's what they pay the premium for, and has been for the last 150 odd years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What TPE should have is enough capacity that 1st is not just a means of getting a seat. That is vaguely tolerable on South East commuter services but not on something that calls itself InterCity.

Hopefully the new stock will resolve this.

 

[Senex]

Hi all,
I have just come off a cross country service running through Leeds and Sheffield in the rush hour. The train was crammed full and in the end the staff allowed non first class passengers to stand in the first class carriage. None of them sat (so there were a couple of empty seats for any extra first class passenger who might join the train). The staff said first was not declassified. I think their decision was partially sparked by trying to get a wheelchair passenger onto the train!
While not ideal, it did seem like the fairest compromise they could manage. The train manager announced that he had informed his bosses about the overcrowding on the train and that it was not acceptable...
The train was also getting later and later at each station. The blame seems to fall either on the operators for allowing short distance commuters onto a long distance train (and not providing enough local services) or on XC for providing 4-car voyagers which are totally incapable of coping with the loads placed on them.
Just my thoughts as a first class ticket holder on one particular service.

That sounds to me as though staff had in practice declassified First, if they were allowing Standard ticket-holders to stand in the saloon itself and not just in the vestibules (though those are technically First as well). Having done that, there surely should have been the offer of refunds to passengers who had paid the first-class fares.
This does seem to be a particular problem with inter-city trains around Leeds and Manchester, where they can get flooded out with short-distance passengers making journeys like Wakelfield-Leeds or Huddersfield-Leeds, or Wigan-Manchester or Bolton-Manchester. High time for differential pricing for different qualities of service?

 

[takno]

That sounds to me as though staff had in practice declassified First, if they were allowing Standard ticket-holders to stand in the saloon itself and not just in the vestibules (though those are technically First as well). Having done that, there surely should have been the offer of refunds to passengers who had paid the first-class fares.
This does seem to be a particular problem with inter-city trains around Leeds and Manchester, where they can get flooded out with short-distance passengers making journeys like Wakelfield-Leeds or Huddersfield-Leeds, or Wigan-Manchester or Bolton-Manchester. High time for differential pricing for different qualities of service?

Possibly high time for providing a decent level of commuter service and long enough trains on the routes. You can talk about differential pricing until you're blue in the face, but for the most part there isn't a different 'more suitable' train they ought to be catching, and if there is it is even more crush-loaded than the long-distance one.

 

[cuccir]

The point is that people who have paid (quite often quite a bit) extra for first rightly expect that they won't have standard class ticket holders in their area.

Frankly I don't think this is what ANY First Class ticket holders think they've bought, except maybe for you.

A more spacious and comfortable seating area, a more 'premium' ambience and quality of fittings, a greater likelihood of a seat on trains where seats cannot be reserved, and a complimentary service provided at seat are all things that people booking First Class are likely to be expecting in exchange for a First Class ticket purchase.

Simply the right to exclude customers who don't have First Class tickets from their area for no reason beyond that is a deeply illogical and almost incomprehensibly bizarre thing to want to try to buy. Pretty much no reasonable person would ever pay more for that alone. It's also very clear, in my view, that this is something that is not on offer when you buy a First Class ticket.

Just to press you on this Starmill: aren't many of the things you're paying for - certainly the spaciousness of the seating area, the greater likelihood of a seat, the ability to offer a complimentary service - essentially dependent upon excluding standard class customers? I say this as someone who doesn't regularly travel first class, but I'd have thought that the majority of what it offers is only possible because the majority of passengers on the train are excluded; not because those people are 'lower class' or in some way worse, but simply because they're people who take up space. So while it might not be the primary motivation, excluding standard class passengers is core to what you're paying for, even if only indirectly.

 

[cuccir]

What TPE should have is enough capacity that 1st is not just a means of getting a seat. That is vaguely tolerable on South East commuter services but not on something that calls itself InterCity.

Hopefully the new stock will resolve this.

Agreed.

 

[bramling]

What's that sound ? Why it's me playing the world's smallest violin as I think about the plight of first class ticket holders forced to share their rarified air with the plebians so that people don't get left on platforms. Why do they feel that the premiums they pay entitle them to special treatment in any circumstances, but oridnary folk shouldn't be able to expect ro actually travel on the services they have bought tickets for ?

Buying a ticket doesn't generally guarantee people to travel on a particular train.

 

[bramling]

Just to press you on this Starmill: aren't many of the things you're paying for - certainly the spaciousness of the seating area, the greater likelihood of a seat, the ability to offer a complimentary service - essentially dependent upon excluding standard class customers? I say this as someone who doesn't regularly travel first class, but I'd have thought that the majority of what it offers is only possible because the majority of passengers on the train are excluded; not because those people are 'lower class' or in some way worse, but simply because they're people who take up space. So while it might not be the primary motivation, excluding standard class passengers is core to what you're paying for, even if only indirectly.

Agreed. Why on earth would someone pay extra for something which others can enjoy without paying?

Any reasonable person would be peeved if they've paid for something and then find other people can just walk in without paying, and this applies everywhere in life not just rail travel.

I have no issue with people making a case to say there shouldn't be first class at all, there's no right or wrong answer to that one, and a quite reasonable case can be made for abolishing it on all or some services. However if it's there and people pay for it then it should be respected.

 

[AM9]

It is morally wrong to allow a commercial operation to profit from wasting finite capacity of a publically owned resource that is funded with public money (the limited number of paths on railway infrastructure). For some, travel is both essential and the railway is the only way that it can be undertaken. Would we tolerate a multi-tiered road system where in times of congestion, those who pay more car tax can travel easier by the exclusion of others? Note: that is the general road system, not those maintained through tolls.

 

[tom73]

Although I can only very rarely afford First Class, I would feel very resentful, having paid the extra money, to have the carriage/section filled with passengers. Even if the standees were all First Class ticket holders, I'd still be making my feelings known to the TOC concerned. In my book, there should be no standing at all in First Class and no standing at all on services of 90 minutes or more duration end to end. Always disturbed to read LNER Updates warning that a particular service is "full and standing" from KGX or STV. If people are standing on a long distance service, it is indisputable proof that the service needs a frequency increase.

 

[bramling]

It is morally wrong to allow a commercial operation to profit from wasting finite capacity of a publically owned resource that is funded with public money (the limited number of paths on railway infrastructure). For some, travel is both essential and the railway is the only way that it can be undertaken. Would we tolerate a multi-tiered road system where in times of congestion, those who pay more car tax can travel easier by the exclusion of others? Note: that is the general road system, not those maintained through tolls.

You missed an “in my opinion” on the start of that. It’s a perfectly legitimate and reasonable viewpoint, but not one shared by everyone by any means.

Things aren’t any different now to BR days, apart from perhaps that trains are generally more crowded.

 

[sprunt]

Agreed. Why on earth would someone pay extra for something which others can enjoy without paying?

No reason. That's why in circumstances under which the thing they're paying extra for isn't available, they're entitled to a refund of the extra, a point you keep disregarding.

 

[mmh]

Any reasonable person would be peeved if they've paid for something and then find other people can just walk in without paying, and this applies everywhere in life not just rail travel.

Not everywhere - airlines routinely put passengers in business / first class seats who haven't paid the supplement for them, and don't refund the people who have.

 

[AlterEgo]

Frankly I don't think this is what ANY First Class ticket holders think they've bought, except maybe for you.

A more spacious and comfortable seating area, a more 'premium' ambience and quality of fittings, a greater likelihood of a seat on trains where seats cannot be reserved, and a complimentary service provided at seat are all things that people booking First Class are likely to be expecting in exchange for a First Class ticket purchase.

Simply the right to exclude customers who don't have First Class tickets from their area for no reason beyond that is a deeply illogical and almost incomprehensibly bizarre thing to want to try to buy. Pretty much no reasonable person would ever pay more for that alone. It's also very clear, in my view, that this is something that is not on offer when you buy a First Class ticket.

I think you've maybe misconstrued the meaning there - when people pay for First Class train tickets, or a business class flight, or a VIP booth in a nightclub, or an executive box at the football, or any other sort of service, they're not trying to "exclude the lower classes" but rather want a level of privacy or services which actually depend on the exclusion of people who haven't chosen to pay for it.

 

[yorkie]

Although I can only very rarely afford First Class, I would feel very resentful, having paid the extra money, to have the carriage/section filled with passengers...

I disagree. If I have paid extra for the extra space and it ends up getting declassified, I am more than happy to receive a refund of the difference in fares.

I would rather everyone who paid the extra relieves this refund than people be left behind!

If people are standing on a long distance service, it is indisputable proof that the service needs a frequency increase.

On the times this has happened to me, it has been because of a sporting event, a strike to other operators service, or service disruption due to an unforeseen incident.

 

[yorkie]

Would we tolerate a multi-tiered road system...

We already have a system whereby people who have spacious cars get more space than those of us who don't (e.g. I cycle or walk or get a bus; I occasionally get a lift but I will never be occupying the entire footprint of a car by myself), and that is the true comparison between 1st and Standard class.

Today I will cycle to the station rather than take the car; I have chosen to pay less but in turn I will occupy vastly less road space. When I get to the station, I will board a train in 1st class because I have paid extra to occupy a slightly larger amount of space than if I had paid a bit less to go in Standard.

In both cases I have a choice, based on my budget and my requirements and what I want to do. The difference between 1st and Standard is far smaller than the difference between certain road users and certain other road users.

I think any further comparisons would belong in a new thread in General Discussion, feel free to create one if you'd like to explore this comparison further.

If 1st class gets declassified, I will be able to claim back the difference, so I won't have lost out. If I am unable to sit down at all then I would get the full amount back, but still be conveyed to my destination. I think that the system is fair and reasonable.

 

[sefton]

Buying a ticket doesn't generally guarantee people to travel on a particular train.

But to deliberately delay your customers because you have made the decision to carry empty space around, rather than declassify that empty space is utterly unacceptable.

 

[AM9]

You missed an “in my opinion” on the start of that. It’s a perfectly legitimate and reasonable viewpoint, but not one shared by everyone by any means.

Things aren’t any different now to BR days, apart from perhaps that trains are generally more crowded.

Yes I'll give you that. My omission.

 

[tiptoptaff]

The crew on board at that exact moment may well have access to reservation data for the rest of the journey. They may choose to leave 1st full classified as such, and half empty at station A, because they know at station B, C or D they have a number of expected reservations that would fill 1st class with full paying passengers.

Just because something has happened in front of you that you can see, doesn't mean a bigger picture isn't being considered

 

[gsnedders]

But to deliberately delay your customers because you have made the decision to carry empty space around, rather than declassify that empty space is utterly unacceptable.

I disagree: that shouldn't be up to the train crew. If the TOC wants to carry empty space around and delay repay lots of customers, they should absolutely be free to do so. (And, in reality, many are forced by the DfT's franchise agreements which require a given amount of first class provision.)

Relatedly: for services which the franchise agreement requires first class provision, is any penalty due to the franchisee if it is declassified or otherwise not provided?

 

[AlterEgo]

I disagree: that shouldn't be up to the train crew. If the TOC wants to carry empty space around and delay repay lots of customers, they should absolutely be free to do so. (And, in reality, many are forced by the DfT's franchise agreements which require a given amount of first class provision.)

Relatedly: for services which the franchise agreement requires first class provision, is any penalty due to the franchisee if it is declassified or otherwise not provided?

Just out of interest, which TOCs are mandated by their franchise to carry a certain percentage of First Class seats?