Should Railcard T&Cs be harmonised?

[Kite159]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #16 originally in this thread.

They could introduced simplification and have the 16-25 & 26-30 cards only valid from 09:30 with the minimum fare element being dropped

 

[Bletchleyite]

They could introduced simplification and have the 16-25 & 26-30 cards only valid from 09:30 with the minimum fare element being dropped

While it's probably one that will get this thread moved to Speculative Ideas, in my view all the Railcard T&Cs need harmonising so the only difference between them is price and the number of people who can travel. That way you could just have one button on the TVM and one set of discounts.

 

[Hadders]

They could introduced simplification and have the 16-25 & 26-30 cards only valid from 09:30 with the minimum fare element being dropped

While it's probably one that will get this thread moved to Speculative Ideas, in my view all the Railcard T&Cs need harmonising so the only difference between them is price and the number of people who can travel. That way you could just have one button on the TVM and one set of discounts.

I disagree.

Disabled Persons Railcard should get a discount at all times. Also allowing the 16-25 Railcard to be used for commuting in the morning is a good thing as it allows someone at the start of their career to obtain discounted travel when their wages are likely to be lower and also means they can buy daily tickets and spread the cost.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Disabled Persons Railcard should get a discount at all times.

I don't agree. It's a leisure product; it is no more sensible for a disabled person to receive a discount on an expenses-paid business trip than it is for a non-disabled person, and like everyone else a leisure trip can be conducted later in the day.

Also allowing the 16-25 Railcard to be used for commuting in the morning is a good thing as it allows someone at the start of their career to obtain discounted travel when their wages are likely to be lower and also means they can buy daily tickets and spread the cost.

They can buy a season ticket like everyone else. And again, there is no justification for expense-paid peak time business trips to be discounted just because they are under 25.

1/3 off, no use before 0930 Mon-Fri except Bank Holidays would be a sensible set of restrictions for all the Railcards.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

While it's probably one that will get this thread moved to Speculative Ideas, in my view all the Railcard T&Cs need harmonising so the only difference between them is price and the number of people who can travel. That way you could just have one button on the TVM and one set of discounts.

- There's a case for having one core set of conditions for all railcards. Once that's in place, it would be possible to have easy to justify variations in conditions (e.g. no time restriction for disabled users, maybe an area restriction for the Gold Card) and cost (cheaper for disabled users and low-income groups such as the young and the old, more expensive for those who currently find it worthwhile to shell out £160 for their Hutton-Lapworth Gold Card). And yes, this does mean I am suggesting a £500 leisure railcard for users of any age who are willing to shell out that much.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think £500 is too much, but for about £150 I reckon you would sell a lot.

That said, you could go a bit higher if it was paid for by monthly direct debit instead of a lump sum. £20 a month perhaps?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I think £500 is too much, but for about £150 I reckon you would sell a lot.

I was basing that on how much of the rail network is in the gold card area. If it's about a third and some people are willing to pay £160 for what in effect is a leisure railcard for that area, then presumably they'll pay three times as much (£480, rounded up to £500) to include the other two thirds of the rail network.

Or is the Gold Card area more than one third of the network?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was basing that on how much of the rail network is in the gold card area. If it's about a third and some people are willing to pay £160 for what in effect is a leisure railcard for that area, then presumably they'll pay three times as much (£480, rounded up to £500) to include the other two thirds of the rail network.

I think that is an excessively simplistic outlook on it - or rather one that only an enthusiast would take. For most people, they want validity for journeys they make. Validity on the Far North Line, for instance, is very much by the by for someone living in London.

 

[Hadders]

I don't agree. It's a leisure product; it is no more sensible for a disabled person to receive a discount on an expenses-paid business trip than it is for a non-disabled person, and like everyone else a leisure trip can be conducted later in the day.

Really? Disabled people often find it really hard to get work and when they do often earn very little. We should do everything we can to help these people in society.

They can buy a season ticket like everyone else. And again, there is no justification for expense-paid peak time business trips to be discounted just because they are under 25.

1/3 off, no use before 0930 Mon-Fri except Bank Holidays would be a sensible set of restrictions for all the Railcards.

Consdier a Stevenage - London Terminals journey

Anytime Day Return £22.00
Weekly £93.50
Monthly £359.10
Annual £3,740

The cost of travel into London is huge for someone at the start of their career. Many of these people won't be on far cat salaries but earning very modest amounts, eg £20-25k. By allowing a 16-25 discount the cost of a daily ticket reduces to £14.50, a much more palatable sum to pay and they can spread the cost by purchasing daily tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really? Disabled people often find it really hard to get work and when they do often earn very little. We should do everything we can to help these people in society.

Season tickets (monthly and up) provide a better discount, so again that is neither here nor there. If we want to help them get to a regular job, discounted season tickets for disabled people would be more beneficial.

Consdier a Stevenage - London Terminals journey

Anytime Day Return £22.00
Weekly £93.50
Monthly £359.10
Annual £3,740

The cost of travel into London is huge for someone at the start of their career. Many of these people won't be on far cat salaries but earning very modest amounts, eg £20-25k. By allowing a 16-25 discount the cost of a daily ticket reduces to £14.50, a much more palatable sum to pay and they can spread the cost by purchasing daily tickets.

I don't see any reason why we should be subsidising employers paying too little to people working in London. Leave the jobs empty and they will have no choice but to properly increase pay. £20K is not a reasonable professional wage in London in 2018. But even so, if they are commuting most likely they have heavily discounted rent with their parents anyway.

 

[Hadders]

Season tickets (monthly and up) provide a better discount, so again that is neither here nor there. If we want to help them get to a regular job, discounted season tickets for disabled people would be more beneficial.

Not in my example they don't. Someone using a 16-25 railcard to commute to London 230 times a week would pay £3,335 which is less than the cost of an annual.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not in my example they don't. Someone using a 16-25 railcard to commute to London 230 times a week would pay £3,335 which is less than the cost of an annual.

And that is certainly not to be encouraged, as it puts unnecessary weight on ticket offices etc.

Perhaps a discounted season ticket is called for, and I already call for things like an annual season by Direct Debit with a 12 month contract to replace up-front payment, but this is really not the purpose of a Railcard.

 

[hooverboy]

I don't agree. It's a leisure product; it is no more sensible for a disabled person to receive a discount on an expenses-paid business trip than it is for a non-disabled person, and like everyone else a leisure trip can be conducted later in the day.

I don't think disabled persons railcard is leisure at all.
I think providing provision for those of limited mobility is basically a fundamental right for those who need it. Disabled people can work too,you know.
who knows how people got disabled in the first place?...why consign them to a bit -part of society?

 

[hooverboy]

Season tickets (monthly and up) provide a better discount, so again that is neither here nor there. If we want to help them get to a regular job, discounted season tickets for disabled people would be more beneficial.



I don't see any reason why we should be subsidising employers paying too little to people working in London. Leave the jobs empty and they will have no choice but to properly increase pay. £20K is not a reasonable professional wage in London in 2018. But even so, if they are commuting most likely they have heavily discounted rent with their parents anyway.

20K is not a reasonable living wage in nearly all of the UK, let alone london.

less tax and NI is about 15K take home, of which you are suggesting £7k(nearly 50%) of which should be spent on transport to/from work for the average commute.
base on london-milton keynes as a route.

the remainder is set aside for rent,food,bills,council tax etc etc.

don't think so.

either wages rise or transport costs fall.

with that sort of travel cost I would be looking for a job in london paying north of £50k.Anything below is frankly not worth getting out of bed for.
basic rule of thumb is:
living costs: max 1/3 of take home pay
transport max 10% of take home pay

 

[Qwerty133]

I don't think disabled persons railcard is leisure at all.
I think providing provision for those of limited mobility is basically a fundamental right for those who need it. Disabled people can work too,you know.
who knows how people got disabled in the first place?...why consign them to a bit -part of society?

The disabled people's railcard is not designed for commuting and if the industry wanted to give a discount for expenses paid trips there are much better ways of doing so. This means it is fair to consider the disabled person's railcard as a leisure product and it does not mean leisure journeys are the only journeys disabled people undertake but rather the vast majority of journeys that the railcard provides the best value for.

 

[richw]

I think providing provision for those of limited mobility is basically a fundamental right for those who need it. Disabled people can work too,you know.

So in the eyes of equality shouldn’t they pay the same as everyone else to get to work?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So in the eyes of equality shouldn’t they pay the same as everyone else to get to work?

Or rather, if it is felt that they should receive a financial advantage in life as part compensation for their having drawn the short straw in a physical or mental sense, is the railway the right organisation to be delivering that? Surely the right place for that to come from is a benefit paid by general taxation.

I don't have an issue with the Railcard itself, but I see no reason why any Railcard should be being used for commuter journeys nor expenses-paid business travel - they are leisure products. And encouraging ticket offices and TVMs to be stacked up with people buying discounted daily tickets because they are cheaper than a season is plain nuts.

 

[sheff1]

1/3 off, no use before 0930 Mon-Fri except Bank Holidays would be a sensible set of restrictions for all the Railcards.

Doesn't sound sensible to me. Time restrictions are what Off Peak tickets are for.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Or rather, if it is felt that they should receive a financial advantage in life as part compensation for their having drawn the short straw in a physical or mental sense, is the railway the right organisation to be delivering that? Surely the right place for that to come from is a benefit paid by general taxation.

Which they receive in the form of Disabled Living Allowance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't sound sensible to me. Time restrictions are what Off Peak tickets are for.

What do you propose, then? Only allow Railcards when Off Peaks are valid?

 

[sheff1]

What do you propose, then? Only allow Railcards when Off Peaks are valid?

Railcards to give discounts off the appropriate ticket for the time of day (including Anytime tickets), exactly the same as they do now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Railcards to give discounts off Anytime tickets, exactly the same as they do now.

Not all of them do give a discount before a specified time.

 

[Llanigraham]

I don't agree. It's a leisure product; it is no more sensible for a disabled person to receive a discount on an expenses-paid business trip than it is for a non-disabled person, and like everyone else a leisure trip can be conducted later in the day.

Where do you get that idea from?
There are numerous disabled people who use their discount to get to work, to medical examinations, and many other NON-leisure activities.
just because SOME holders use it for leisure does NOT mean all do.

 

[sheff1]

Not all of them do give a discount before a specified time.

Well quite.

I fail to see why it is "sensible" to remove validity from long standing (pre-privatisation) railcards just because newer products aimed at different markets have harsher restrictions. That would not likely to be of benefit to anyone.

 

[Llanigraham]

I don't think disabled persons railcard is leisure at all.
I think providing provision for those of limited mobility is basically a fundamental right for those who need it. Disabled people can work too,you know.
who knows how people got disabled in the first place?...why consign them to a bit -part of society?

Can I suggest you look at the criteria for obtaining a Disabled Railcard.
It goes much further than just limited mobility.
I have one because I am hearing impaired, my son because he is an epileptic.

Which they receive in the form of Disabled Living Allowance.

And not every disabled person gets DLA!
See reply above.

 

[bb21]

I don't agree. It's a leisure product; it is no more sensible for a disabled person to receive a discount on an expenses-paid business trip than it is for a non-disabled person, and like everyone else a leisure trip can be conducted later in the day.



They can buy a season ticket like everyone else. And again, there is no justification for expense-paid peak time business trips to be discounted just because they are under 25.

1/3 off, no use before 0930 Mon-Fri except Bank Holidays would be a sensible set of restrictions for all the Railcards.

It will be a massive can of worms with DSB.

Just have a uniform Railcard, but in 4 versions for time and fare level restrictions, with each version priced differently if needed, so the red one can be more expensive than the other three but made available to all.

Blue - valid at all times, no minimum fare, with one tag-along. (Essentially replacing the DSB.)
Green - valid at all times, minimum fare before 0930 weekdays. I have a figure in mind of 20 squids per ticket Standard Class and 40 in First Class for some reason.
Orange - not valid before 0930 weekdays.
Red - not valid before 0930 weekdays and minimum fare at all times, possibly at a higher level than the minimum fare for green version but I think 20/40 is sufficient, reducing cost of medium to longer distance travel.

No July/August easement. All terms apply in all months of the year.

No dependents to be allowed except blue. That is a job for group travel products, the scheme for which needs to be reconsidered across board and a national strategy put in place.

No discount off APs and AP pricing strategies to be rethought across industry.

Valid in First Class.

Season ticket benefits to be harmonised subject to minimum spend, and possibly geographic area, but in the latter's case the division needs to be broad and low in number.

It's all well and good talking about it. Problem with these things is that there will always be at least one poxy TOC who will object and end up with no progress, unless forced by the government.

 

[tiptoptaff]

It's all well and good talking about it. Problem with these things is that there will always be at least one poxy TOC who will object and end up with no progress, unless forced by the government.

Or come up with their own TOC-specific railcard to combat what they didn't like about it all and thus undoing the progress anyway!!

 

[Qwerty133]

I'd personally prefer for railcards to continue to discount advance tickets in some cases, but do agree some of the conditions have to change. Personally I'd go for:
Gold: Available to those aged 16-21 only at a cost of £30 a year or £75 for 3 years. Valid on all tickets at all times with 20% discount on season tickets and 33% on all other tickets.
Black: Available to disabled people (using more restrictive criterion that the current DSB) only; free companion season ticket with an annual (valid only when accompanying the railcard holder for the whole journey, 33% off all other tickets at all times. Cost £30 a year.
Green: Not valid before 09:00 offering a 33% discount on all tickets except season tickets with no minimum fare. Available to those aged over 65 or between 22 and 30, full time students and members of the military. Cost:£50 a year or £120 for 3 years, except for full time students who pay £30 a year.
Pink: 25% discount on walk-up singles and returns after 09:00 and on rovers and rangers available to all who wish to purchase at a cost of £200 a year or £500 for 3 years, discounted to £100 a year for current senior railcard holders not qualifying for one of the above cards. Not valid on certain days to certain destinations (EG: Brighton Pride, London on New Years Eve).
Purple: discounts as pink but free to all annual season ticket holders with a ticket costing more than £500.

 

[maniacmartin]

If you're going to have so many railcard types, you might as well keep with the status quo. I'd be in favour of something more like Bletchleyite proposes, which I think would be easier to understand and also easier to promote.

One railcard type. Valid all day weekends/public holidays, and after 10:00 weekdays. National validity. 1/3 discount off walkup tickets only, in Standard or First class, with no minimum fare. Also gives 1/3 discount for up to 4 children travelling with you.

• Included free with any annual season ticket that costs at least £1000 a year, which would be printed on special season ticket stock (so replaces NSE Gold Card).
• £30 per annum for under 30s, disabled, seniors etc.
• £200 per annum for anyone else.

Those who are disabled in a way that affects their ability to travel alone get a free endorsement on their railcard allowing free companion travel.

 

[cuccir]

I agree with most of what maniacmartin says, except I'd allow all who qualify for a disabled or jobseekers version a discount at all hours.