Should Railcard T&Cs be harmonised?

[adrock1976]

I'd personally prefer for railcards to continue to discount advance tickets in some cases, but do agree some of the conditions have to change. Personally I'd go for:
Gold: Available to those aged 16-21 only at a cost of £30 a year or £75 for 3 years. Valid on all tickets at all times with 20% discount on season tickets and 33% on all other tickets.
Black: Available to disabled people (using more restrictive criterion that the current DSB) only; free companion season ticket with an annual (valid only when accompanying the railcard holder for the whole journey, 33% off all other tickets at all times. Cost £30 a year.
Green: Not valid before 09:00 offering a 33% discount on all tickets except season tickets with no minimum fare. Available to those aged over 65 or between 22 and 30, full time students and members of the military. Cost:£50 a year or £120 for 3 years, except for full time students who pay £30 a year.
Pink: 25% discount on walk-up singles and returns after 09:00 and on rovers and rangers available to all who wish to purchase at a cost of £200 a year or £500 for 3 years, discounted to £100 a year for current senior railcard holders not qualifying for one of the above cards. Not valid on certain days to certain destinations (EG: Brighton Pride, London on New Years Eve).
Purple: discounts as pink but free to all annual season ticket holders with a ticket costing more than £500.

Maybe I could be reading too much into things here, but I would be very wary of having a black branded railcard for disabled people. This is because Heinrich Himmler made people who were disabled to be branded with and to wear black triangles indicating that they were disabled in 1930s Nazi Germany.

 

[kieron]

Or rather, if it is felt that they should receive a financial advantage in life as part compensation for their having drawn the short straw in a physical or mental sense, is the railway the right organisation to be delivering that? Surely the right place for that to come from is a benefit paid by general taxation.

Think about it a bit differently. Many disabled people find travel more difficult and more expensive than the average adult would. This is especially true of train travel, where you can find that the station layout puts barriers in the way of someone getting to a train, that the train design makes it difficult to get on and off it, and that staff behaviour varies widely from one train to the next.

In this context, reducing the cost of a ticket defrays some of the additional cost of using a train during the course of a journey, and encourages someone to consider catching a train as part of a journey even when using trains is not a very positive experience. A benefit which isn't connected with travel wouldn't do that.

 

[sheff1]

I am very surprised at the number of posters who want to worsen the validity of longstanding products in the name of "harmonisation". Sounds rather like the 'simplification' of ticket types (ATOC) and time restrictions (XC etc) which disadvantaged many passengers.

Might as well go the whole hog and just have one single-leg distance-based fare for every journey with no discounts - the ultimate in harmonisation and simplification .

 

[district]

Maybe I could be reading too much into things here, but I would be very wary of having a black branded railcard for disabled people. This is because Heinrich Himmler made people who were disabled to be branded with and to wear black triangles indicating that they were disabled in 1930s Nazi Germany.

Yes you are reading too much into things.

 

[bb21]

If you're going to have so many railcard types, you might as well keep with the status quo. I'd be in favour of something more like Bletchleyite proposes, which I think would be easier to understand and also easier to promote.

One railcard type. Valid all day weekends/public holidays, and after 10:00 weekdays. National validity. 1/3 discount off walkup tickets only, in Standard or First class, with no minimum fare. Also gives 1/3 discount for up to 4 children travelling with you.

• Included free with any annual season ticket that costs at least £1000 a year, which would be printed on special season ticket stock (so replaces NSE Gold Card).
• £30 per annum for under 30s, disabled, seniors etc.
• £200 per annum for anyone else.

Those who are disabled in a way that affects their ability to travel alone get a free endorsement on their railcard allowing free companion travel.

I think you're going to struggle to come up with any politically and economically acceptable proposal that completely removes the ability to discount some of the most expensive tickets for a significant proportion of the customer base, especially pre-1000, as they are frequently the most economic ways for someone making a longer-distance journey, and departing before 1000 the only realistic option in a good proportion of cases, which do not cause capacity issues when going counter-flow.

It is actually incredibly difficult to come up with a uniform set of conditions and just one Railcard, due to the variety of travel needs, operating environment, and economic behaviour, which is why in my proposal the variation is limited to one (or two for the last version) condition on top of standard terms, which can be printed on the Railcard in big fonts. Price differentiation on application alone isn't going to be sufficient, but can be a useful secondary tool.

This actually reminds me of the move by XC to align 0930 restrictions on Savers. Personally I am for it in principle, and feedback on the simplicity has been largely positive AIUI, but do think it had unwelcome implications for those making longer-distance journeys, who might have been unfairly disadvantaged as a result. There is a striking similarity between these two issues. Again that one has no simple solution (in addition not helped by market segmentation, pricing consistency between TOCs hence anomalies, etc).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can I suggest you look at the criteria for obtaining a Disabled Railcard.
It goes much further than just limited mobility.
I have one because I am hearing impaired, my son because he is an epileptic.

My Dad has one because he is very slightly deaf in one ear, a condition which, with his hearing aid, causes him near enough no disadvantage at all in daily life. I must admit to being very surprised they were so wide-ranging - I had always assumed prior to that that their availability would roughly tally with entitlement to a Blue Badge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you're going to have so many railcard types, you might as well keep with the status quo. I'd be in favour of something more like Bletchleyite proposes, which I think would be easier to understand and also easier to promote.

One railcard type. Valid all day weekends/public holidays, and after 10:00 weekdays. National validity. 1/3 discount off walkup tickets only, in Standard or First class, with no minimum fare. Also gives 1/3 discount for up to 4 children travelling with you.

• Included free with any annual season ticket that costs at least £1000 a year, which would be printed on special season ticket stock (so replaces NSE Gold Card).
• £30 per annum for under 30s, disabled, seniors etc.
• £200 per annum for anyone else.

Those who are disabled in a way that affects their ability to travel alone get a free endorsement on their railcard allowing free companion travel.

I think I'd pull it back to 0930 for the start of validity, and I'd consider allowing an adult companion to all holders and would allow discounts on Advances - but otherwise this is pretty much exactly what I would propose, and it would make things hugely simpler.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with most of what maniacmartin says, except I'd allow all who qualify for a disabled or jobseekers version a discount at all hours.

I'd rather see that handled differently, such as allowing jobseekers to claim 100% of travel expenses to interviews from the State.

Someone else mentioned group travel which is a bit separate - I would make GroupSave national - 3 or more people (adults or children) with no maximum would give a flat 1/3 off all the fares (walk-up or Advance), be they adult or child fares, again with the same validity time constraints, No cap on the numbers in a group, so a consequent abolition of all the (vastly inferior) TOC specific large group schemes. So again the same button on the TVM - dead simple.

That could allow the Family and Friends to be binned off, pretty much.

 

[Qwerty133]

If you're going to have so many railcard types, you might as well keep with the status quo. I'd be in favour of something more like Bletchleyite proposes, which I think would be easier to understand and also easier to promote.

One railcard type. Valid all day weekends/public holidays, and after 10:00 weekdays. National validity. 1/3 discount off walkup tickets only, in Standard or First class, with no minimum fare. Also gives 1/3 discount for up to 4 children travelling with you.

• Included free with any annual season ticket that costs at least £1000 a year, which would be printed on special season ticket stock (so replaces NSE Gold Card).
• £30 per annum for under 30s, disabled, seniors etc.
• £200 per annum for anyone else.

Those who are disabled in a way that affects their ability to travel alone get a free endorsement on their railcard allowing free companion travel.

After 10am is totally unsuitable outside of the south east where trains don't run every 15 minutes. At the very latest the cut off time should be 09:00 (possibly extended to 10 for journeys within the London commuter zone). I also believe that certain groups should get discounts on advance tickets but agree that it should not be included in a general railcard. At the very least I think it is necessary to have 2 types of card to allow for this. I also believe season tickets should be reduced in cost for 16-20 year olds who face much lower potential wages but are currently expected to pay full price (often to compulsory education).

 

[talldave]

My Dad has one because he is very slightly deaf in one ear, a condition which, with his hearing aid, causes him near enough no disadvantage at all in daily life. I must admit to being very surprised they were so wide-ranging - I had always assumed prior to that that their availability would roughly tally with entitlement to a Blue Badge.

I agree. My eyesight is not perfect but is corrected with glasses - can I have discounted rail travel? And if not, why not? In an age where discrimination is meant to be outlawed, something is very wrong. I have to pay £160 for my Gold "Railcard", because I'm not old enough, young enough, disabled enough, or my child old enough to be allowed to get any of the available Railcards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

or my child old enough to be allowed to get any of the available Railcards.

As an aside, if you have a child under 5 you *can* have a F&F and buy a child ticket for them in order to get your adult discount when travelling with them. This is specifically allowed in the T&Cs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree. My eyesight is not perfect but is corrected with glasses - can I have discounted rail travel? And if not, why not?

That is a very good point. I too wear glasses, and the corrected vision is *not quite* as good as before I needed them, for instance because you don't get quite the same all-round vision as you do without (and I really don't get on with contacts) and because, if you have very strong correction, the image appears smaller than it would if you didn't need it. So why is slight deafness corrected using a hearing aid seen as justifying of a Railcard and slight eyesight issues corrected using glasses not?

How about non-physical disabilities like autism, which (depending on severity) probably causes much more of a barrier to everyday life than mild hearing loss or the need for glasses?

FWIW, I'm not convinced either mild hearing loss or needing glasses should be included, I'd be more inclined to say that it should be as I thought it was - the same definition as a Blue Badge, as that is effectively a state definition of the need for aids to mobility. Possibly also add any medical condition that disqualifies the holder from driving.

 

[maniacmartin]

I could be persuaded to move to an 09:30 cutoff, but not to 09:00. This is eating into the morning peak where space on trains is at a premium. If you need to travel earlier, it’s most likely because of commuting, so in my opinion you should have to pay the full rate whether you’re disabled, just starting out in your career or a big wig CEO.

As to jobseekers, in principle I too would prefer the cost to fall on the Jobcentre, but feel the extra admin burden might not be worth it. Also there would be no incentive for jobseekers to purchase the most cost effective ticket if it was going to be reinbursed afterwards by the taxpayer anyway.

I totally agree that all the different Groupsave schemes should be unified with no cap on the size of the group.

 

[swt_passenger]

I could be persuaded to move to an 09:30 cutoff, but not to 09:00. This is eating into the morning peak where space on trains is at a premium. If you need to travel earlier, it’s most likely because of commuting, so in my opinion you should have to pay the full rate...

My senior card works within the “Network area” whenever the offpeak fares to the destination become available. That can be around 0830 depending on where I get on. I think that’s a better idea than a fixed cutoff time of 0900 or 0930. Shouldn't that work OK nationally?

But under the current schemes the fact that they are all slightly different means there is no sudden ‘cliff edge’ when all the different railcard holders head for the same train. For example seniors round my way get up to a 60 minute head start on Goldcard leisure travellers, and 90 minutes on weekday Network Card holders. Maybe that gradual ramp up in availability is part of a cunning plan...

 

[Llanigraham]

FWIW, I'm not convinced either mild hearing loss or needing glasses should be included, I'd be more inclined to say that it should be as I thought it was - the same definition as a Blue Badge, as that is effectively a state definition of the need for aids to mobility. Possibly also add any medical condition that disqualifies the holder from driving.

Define mild hearing loss?
How do you measure it?
What is the benchmark?
What other legislation would also need to change to allow this removal?
I can tell you now that it is a highly complex subject and not something that can be measured as simplistically as you seem to think.
Without my hearing aid I have distinct problems hearing some announcements, not helped by additionally having tinitus which my hearing aid also masks with "white noise".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Define mild hearing loss?
How do you measure it?
What is the benchmark?
What other legislation would also need to change to allow this removal?
I can tell you now that it is a highly complex subject and not something that can be measured as simplistically as you seem to think.
Without my hearing aid I have distinct problems hearing some announcements, not helped by additionally having tinitus which my hearing aid also masks with "white noise".

Is hearing loss included in the Blue Badge scheme?

 

[A Challenge]

Blue Badge eligibility
You are entitled to receive a Blue Badge if you’re registered as blind or receive any of the following benefits.

• The mobility component of Disability Living Allowance (DLA) at the higher rate (for under 65s).
• Personal Independence Payment (PIP) with a score of 8 or above in the ‘moving around’ section of the assessment (you’ll be asked to provide a duplicate of your entitlement letter with a date within the past 12 months).
• A lump-sum War Pensioners’ Mobility Supplement payment (at tariffs 1 to 8) after being certified as having a serious disability, which means you are unable to, or find it very difficult to, walk.

What if you aren’t automatically eligible?
You may also be eligible for a badge if:

• you have a permanent disability that means you have difficulty walking short distances (around 80 metres)
• you have a permanent disability that prevents you from using parking meters.

If this is the case, you or the person supporting you will need to fill in an extra part of the application form to demonstrate why you need the permit. If possible, get a letter from your GP or consultant as evidence.



Use gov.uk’s Blue Badge eligibility checker to see whether you’ll be able to make an application.



If you have any further questions about eligibility, or you’d like to discuss an application in advance, you can contact your local council.

https://goo.gl/dm5LAq (short link)

Here is the criterion for getting a blue badge, and as you can see from this you can't get a blue badge for having hearing aids, and that that is not the only criteria that has been added to the blue badge list for the DSB railcard.

 

[Llanigraham]

Is hearing loss included in the Blue Badge scheme?

Not that I know of, but that has nothing to do with the Disabled rail card, so I fail to see your point.
Neither is being an epileptic or being blind, but they are also entitled to the card.

 

[BigCj34]

Limiting the Disabled Railcard would be politically unacceptable, and rightly so. Disabled people have been massively screwed over by the government, this would only compound that further.

The £160 Gold card exists because of a season ticket technicality, really the Network Railcard ought to have the same benefits as the Gold Card. Or of course a National Railcard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The £160 Gold card exists because of a season ticket technicality, really the Network Railcard ought to have the same benefits as the Gold Card. Or of course a National Railcard.

I thought for many years that they should just give a free Network Railcard with an annual season ticket given that they were nearly the same thing at one point - but they do seem to have diverged somewhat in validity to the point that it can be worth holding both.

 

[Hadders]

I thought for many years that they should just give a free Network Railcard with an annual season ticket given that they were nearly the same thing at one point - but they do seem to have diverged somewhat in validity to the point that it can be worth holding both.

I hold both! Although I rarely use the Network Railcard it does have it’s used for a bit of travel with Virgin to Milton Keynes.

I really don’t know why LNER don’t accept Gold Card discounted tickets between Stevenage and Kings Cross. Makes no sense.

 

[PeterC]

I am very surprised at the number of posters who want to worsen the validity of longstanding products in the name of "harmonisation". Sounds rather like the 'simplification' of ticket types (ATOC) and time restrictions (XC etc) which disadvantaged many passengers.

Might as well go the whole hog and just have one single-leg distance-based fare for every journey with no discounts - the ultimate in harmonisation and simplification .

As long as walk up fares were competitive with driving I'd happily see the discounts scrapped.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

Not that I know of, but that has nothing to do with the Disabled rail card, so I fail to see your point.
Neither is being an epileptic or being blind, but they are also entitled to the card.

A better comparison would perhaps be entitlement to a free bus pass due to disability. There is a hearing element to it, and quite a high restriction too, something like “an overall average loss of 70db”.

 

[Llanigraham]

A better comparison would perhaps be entitlement to a free bus pass due to disability. There is a hearing element to it, and quite a high restriction too, something like “an overall average loss of 70db”.

Is that just in your area, because I can find nothing here?

 

[[.n]]

I could be persuaded to move to an 09:30 cutoff, but not to 09:00. This is eating into the morning peak where space on trains is at a premium. If you need to travel earlier, it’s most likely because of commuting, so in my opinion you should have to pay the full rate whether you’re disabled, just starting out in your career or a big wig CEO.

Or just maybe you live on a route that is so far away from London that, even for leisure purposes the 9.00 start time is unfair.

If we are going to mess around with stuff (and I for one think we shouldn't, the minimum fare restriction seems to work quite well as an equalising measure for several of the arguments in the thread), then lets use the existing off-peak code restrictions as the indicator

 

[krus_aragon]

How about non-physical disabilities like autism, which (depending on severity) probably causes much more of a barrier to everyday life than mild hearing loss or the need for glasses?

An extended family member diagnosed at the severe end of the autistic spectrum (doesn't speak, but communicates non-verbally) has a DSB railcard. I can't recall offhand whether they first had one before they developed they associated epilepsy as a teenager, though.


While I feel that terms for the DSB railcard should probably remain distinct, I see less of a reason for the 16-25, 26-30 and Senior Railcards all having significantly different restrictions.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

Is that just in your area, because I can find nothing here?

That was from Derbyshire's application form: https://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/site-...fares/goldcard/gold-card-application-form.PDF

Nottinghamshire is similar, it just doesn't give the decibel thresholds: http://www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/media/110445/concessionarybuspassdisabledperson.pdf

South Yorkshire _appear_ to be even more restrictive with regards to hearing loss, as they only say "deaf" without any explanation: http://www.travelsouthyorkshire.com/disabled/#qualify

 

[IceAgeComing]

My Dad has one because he is very slightly deaf in one ear, a condition which, with his hearing aid, causes him near enough no disadvantage at all in daily life. I must admit to being very surprised they were so wide-ranging - I had always assumed prior to that that their availability would roughly tally with entitlement to a Blue Badge.

The argument for things like this is that broadly its better to have your limitations to be overly inclusive and allow some people with impairments that perhaps don't limit them in a serious way to have cheaper train transport rather than be overly strict and put significant barriers in the way of some disabled people who could benefit significantly from the railcard. I don't want to get political here but in elements of recent government policy you can see the harm that moving from an inclusive to an exclusionary policy when it comes to the rights that disabled people have can have on those who aren't marginal cases; and considering that a more inclusionary Disabled Railcard doesn't really cost much you may as well do it and avoid the problems that would happen if you started not allowing people access to the thing.

The point about invisible disabilities also needs to be remembered. A friend of a friend sometimes gets skeptical treatment from people (usually barrier staff who tend to not be trained on such things as well; guards are usually great) when she travels with her Disabled railcard because people don't think that she "looks disabled" whatever that is supposed to mean and come from a position where they assume she MUST be fare dodging. Her condition is some kind of sleeping thing where she'll just sometimes fall asleep in the middle of doing things which naturally means that she's banned from driving so she is therefore entitled to a Disabled Person Railcard since it wouldn't really be fair to deny a person the right to drive and then not assist them in other forms of transport.

My position on this is that when it comes to access for Disabled People I'd always rather cast the net a little wide than not wide enough so I'd oppose any restrictions on the Disabled Persons Railcard.

I do support harmonising the restrictions on Railcards generally - I actually think that the way that they do it for the 16-25 railcard might be the best way rather than an outright ban in the morning peak since, at least in my experience, most journeys where you go above the limit are probably not long enough to where they are regular things and also it allows people to make longer trips at more convenient times. It helped me once this year: I had a job interview in London and I live in Stirling so I organised the interview for mid afternoon and did it all on one day which involved getting the 5:30 train to London which I couldn't have done on my railcard with those limitations: while with the minimum fare I could travel then and save a decent chunk of money while spending a rather large amount - all of the cheap advances had gone when i had to organise this so it was rather expensive. There could be an argument on exactly how high that Minimum Fare should be (and I'd personally like to see some discount on season tickets as well; even if it isn't a third off) but I don't think that its necessarily a bad thing that on expensive trips that aren't going to be regular, like in my example, that people can travel in the morning peak with a railcard discount.

 

[Deerfold]

Not that I know of, but that has nothing to do with the Disabled rail card, so I fail to see your point.
Neither is being an epileptic or being blind, but they are also entitled to the card.

My wife's grandmother has a blue parking badge which she got because she was (almost) blind. It's not expected that she'll be driving the car it's used in.

 

[BluePenguin]

I could be persuaded to move to an 09:30 cutoff, but not to 09:00. This is eating into the morning peak where space on trains is at a premium. If you need to travel earlier, it’s most likely because of commuting, so in my opinion you should have to pay the full rate whether you’re disabled, just starting out in your career or a big wig CEO.

Urm why should people be punished and pay a premium to travel to work? Just because you are commuting this should not equal a higher fare. Many people commute off peak, should they be taxed in this way too? It is not an incentive at all.

There aren't many jobs which allow you to start after 09:00 anyway. In fact turning up to work late or requesting a later start time is very common because of strict peak hours. Many use the fantastic excuse that price of the train ticket is cheaper so that they can enjoy a longer lie in bed in the morning. Younger workers on low wages especially are price sensitive and the railway would gain more of their custom if they were less difficult