Should some TFW services transfer to Northern?

[peters]

Perhaps it would make sense for the Chester to Crewe and Chester to Liverpool services to be transferred to Northern, along with a few of the TfW crews based at Chester. After all it makes more sense for TfN to have a say in how they are run, than some politician in Cardiff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps it would make sense for the Chester to Crewe and Chester to Liverpool services to be transferred to Northern, along with a few of the TfW crews based at Chester. After all it makes more sense for TfN to have a say in how they are run, than some politician in Cardiff.

Chester to Liverpool is planned to run to Llandudno in the medium term.

Chester to Crewe is a connection to the North Wales Coast services and is primarily used by users of those services, so giving it to a separate TOC doesn't make sense. If you want to use an English TOC for that journey, Avanti operate hourly.

 

[craigybagel]

Perhaps it would make sense for the Chester to Crewe and Chester to Liverpool services to be transferred to Northern, along with a few of the TfW crews based at Chester. After all it makes more sense for TfN to have a say in how they are run, than some politician in Cardiff.

No, no and no. Why go to all the expense and hassle of opening up a small depot in Chester, and losing a whole load of flexibility in the process, just because of unfounded fears over the Welsh government. I'm no fan of the folks in Cardiff Bay either, but I've never seen any kind of direct intervention from them that's been detrimental to the English services, despite being based at a TFW depot in England.

Incidentally, the Crewe - Chester shuttle is worried by crews from 5 different Driver depots and 6 different Guards depots. It's a nice use of resources that helps make diagrams as efficient as possible. You'd be throwing all of that away at great expense giving it to a TOC that at present has no depot within 30 miles.

 

[berneyarms]

Perhaps it would make sense for the Chester to Crewe and Chester to Liverpool services to be transferred to Northern, along with a few of the TfW crews based at Chester. After all it makes more sense for TfN to have a say in how they are run, than some politician in Cardiff.

How would they change they are run?

Chester/Crewe is purely an hourly connection into/out of an Avanti service to/from London and offering connections along the coast.

Chester/Liverpool is going to be North Wales or Cardiff to Liverpool in the long run.

Why change something that isn’t broken?

It is Wales and Borders franchise after all and the UK Government has an input into the operations as it is.

 

[peters]

No, no and no. Why go to all the expense and hassle of opening up a small depot in Chester, and losing a whole load of flexibility in the process, just because of unfounded fears over the Welsh government. I'm no fan of the folks in Cardiff Bay either, but I've never seen any kind of direct intervention from them that's been detrimental to the English services, despite being based at a TFW depot in England.

Incidentally, the Crewe - Chester shuttle is worried by crews from 5 different Driver depots and 6 different Guards depots. It's a nice use of resources that helps make diagrams as efficient as possible. You'd be throwing all of that away at great expense giving it to a TOC that at present has no depot within 30 miles.

I didn't say they should open a new small depot in Chester. Northern should run two hourly services to Chester, two hourly services to Crewe and numerous services to Lime Street and one of their trains spends 50 minutes at Chester between services, I'm sure even Northern can manage to rework their train and crew diagrams to run both services efficiently without wasting resources.

Out of interest what depot do TfW Rail have 'within 30 miles' of Birmingham International?

How would they change they are run?

Chester/Crewe is purely an hourly connection into/out of an Avanti service to/from London and offering connections along the coast.

Chester/Liverpool is going to be North Wales or Cardiff to Liverpool in the long run.

Why change something that isn’t broken?

It is Wales and Borders franchise after all and the UK Government has an input into the operations as it is.

What was broken with the Arriva Trains Wales franchise that required a solution of the Welsh government being responsible for the contract? If the answer was the Welsh politicians wanted more of a say in how services in Wales are run then surely the local councils in Cheshire and Merseyside not having a say in how two services are run because they are in the 'Welsh' franchise is just as much of a problem. It seems the 'Welsh' franchise doesn't want to bother running the peak time extras to Chester anymore, why should they be allowed to pick and choose which English services they do and don't run? No other rail company would be allowed to cherry pick the services they want.

 

[craigybagel]

I didn't say they should open a new small depot in Chester. Northern should run two hourly services to Chester, two hourly services to Crewe and numerous services to Lime Street and one of their trains spends 50 minutes at Chester between services, I'm sure even Northern can manage to rework their train and crew diagrams to run both services efficiently without wasting resources.

Out of interest what depot do TfW Rail have 'within 30 miles' of Birmingham International?

You wanted to transfer some TFW staff from Chester to Northern. Instead of opening a Northern depot there are you instead expecting the TfW staff to relocate to Liverpool?

While it's true that TfW don't have a depot in Birmingham, all of their services to and from there pass through at least one of Chester, Crewe and Shrewsbury where they do have depots. There are no Northern depots anywhere near either end of the Crewe - Chester line. You suggest interworking it with other services, but they would have to leave Liverpool/Manchester extremely early to be in Chester or Crewe in time to do so, and get back extremely late at the end of the day.

And all of this to achieve what exactly?

 

[peters]

You wanted to transfer some TFW staff from Chester to Northern. Instead of opening a Northern depot there are you instead expecting the TfW staff to relocate to Liverpool?

I'm not writing a detailed proposal of how everything would work just because you don't like my idea of having two North of England services in the franchise which TfN have a say over, like most of the other local services in the North of England. I very much doubt all staff based at Chester live in either Chester or the Welsh side of the depot, there's possibly some who live closer to Liverpool, Manchester or somewhere else in the area Northern may decide it's a good idea to open a depot. Don't forget Northern are supposed to be introducing additional Mid-Cheshire services and additional Ellesmere Port services so if the TfW Rail services transfer as well that could mean they run 6 services per hour in each direction in West Cheshire - a lot more than they run to Buxton or Blackburn, where apparently they have depots.

You suggest interworking it with other services, but they would have to leave Liverpool/Manchester extremely early to be in Chester or Crewe in time to do so, and get back extremely late at the end of the day.

That depends whether the first and last services are requirements or if they are provided because the depot is in Chester, so it doesn't make sense to run trains empty to Crewe in the morning and back to Chester empty late at night. Isn't the 03:30 Chester to Manchester Airport effectively a service to get a train moved to Manchester, at the same time as retaining crew knowledge for the Mid-Cheshire line?

 

[pdeaves]

the Crewe - Chester shuttle is worried by crews from 5 different Driver depots

I like that!

 

[Llandudno]

Perhaps it would make sense for the Chester to Crewe and Chester to Liverpool services to be transferred to Northern, along with a few of the TfW crews based at Chester. After all it makes more sense for TfN to have a say in how they are run, than some politician in Cardiff.

Hell no, TfW may cancel the odd train, but don’t give Northern any more routes to cover, especially during the evening and weekends!

Although there maybe some merit in TfN having some input in the level of service provided on English sections of TfW operated routes.

 

[craigybagel]

I'm not writing a detailed proposal of how everything would work just because you don't like my idea of having two North of England services in the franchise which TfN have a say over, like most of the other local services in the North of England. I very much doubt all staff based at Chester live in either Chester or the Welsh side of the depot, there's possibly some who live closer to Liverpool, Manchester or somewhere else in the area Northern may decide it's a good idea to open a depot. Don't forget Northern are supposed to be introducing additional Mid-Cheshire services and additional Ellesmere Port services so if the TfW Rail services transfer as well that could mean they run 6 services per hour in each direction in West Cheshire - a lot more than they run to Buxton or Blackburn, where apparently they have depots.

But as it stands without further explanation your idea is massively flawed - it will increase costs, reduce efficiency and force the displacement of staff, with as far as I can tell very little gained in return. Now, if Northern had a depot in Crewe and/or Chester then I agree things would be different - but they don't, and have shown no interest at all in establishing one despite the planned increase in services.

That depends whether the first and last services are requirements or if they are provided because the depot is in Chester, so it doesn't make sense to run trains empty to Crewe in the morning and back to Chester empty late at night. Isn't the 03:30 Chester to Manchester Airport effectively a service to get a train moved to Manchester, at the same time as retaining crew knowledge for the Mid-Cheshire line?

That is indeed it's primary purpose. But pre Covid you'd be surprised how many people use these services.

I like that!

Not too far from the truth The Crewe - Chester shuttles aren't too much hard work, they just get a bit tedious if you do more than one consecutively. That's why I'm grateful for the fact the work is spread out across so many depots.

 

[peters]

But as it stands without further explanation your idea is massively flawed - it will increase costs, reduce efficiency and force the displacement of staff, with as far as I can tell very little gained in return. Now, if Northern had a depot in Crewe and/or Chester then I agree things would be different - but they don't, and have shown no interest at all in establishing one despite the planned increase in services.

You seem to have focused on the 25 minute Chester to Crewe shuttle, surely if operating efficiencies can be found with Northern running the 50 minute service between Liverpool and Chester those could exceed the additional costs incurred in operating the short service.

That is indeed it's primary purpose. But pre Covid you'd be surprised how many people use these services.

Living not far from the airport I'm well aware pre-covid departures started at 6am with a lot of flights leaving between 6am and 8am, with their being an overnight ban on departures which ends at 6am. Check-in/bag drop usually opens around 2 hours before departure and closes around 40 minutes before, so public transport arrivals at 5am will suit a lot of people. As there are a lot of flight arrivals between midnight and 2am what would be ideal is 02:00 Manchester Airport to Chester service, with the 03:30 being a return working. It's a shame those of us living under the flight path can't easily get to the airport by public transport.

 

[Djgr]

Perhaps it would make sense for the Chester to Crewe and Chester to Liverpool services to be transferred to Northern, along with a few of the TfW crews based at Chester. After all it makes more sense for TfN to have a say in how they are run, than some politician in Cardiff.

On the basis that Northern services in the North West have been such a triumph over the last decade!

 

[Llandudno]

I have a feeling that passengers on the mid Cheshire line would rather TfW take over the Northern services!

 

[craigybagel]

You seem to have focused on the 25 minute Chester to Crewe shuttle, surely if operating efficiencies can be found with Northern running the 50 minute service between Liverpool and Chester those could exceed the additional costs incurred in operating the short service.

Others have already pointed out the major flaw with Northern running the Liverpool - Chester service; the fact it's due to be extended through to Wales (North and South) in the near future. Even last year pre Covid there was one a day each way extended to Wrexham. It's also hard to see any efficiencies available with combining the Liverpool - Chester and Chester - Crewe given that the paths for each service don't match at Chester, and that they're already pretty efficient (without a massive speeding up it's impossible to improve on the current 3 units required for an hourly service on both routes).

Living not far from the airport I'm well aware pre-covid departures started at 6am with a lot of flights leaving between 6am and 8am, with their being an overnight ban on departures which ends at 6am. Check-in/bag drop usually opens around 2 hours before departure and closes around 40 minutes before, so public transport arrivals at 5am will suit a lot of people. As there are a lot of flight arrivals between midnight and 2am what would be ideal is 02:00 Manchester Airport to Chester service, with the 03:30 being a return working. It's a shame those of us living under the flight path can't easily get to the airport by public transport.

Now this I do agree with you on. TPE have been running their overnight services to the airport for years and it would be nice to see it on other routes too - though given how much even the existing late night/early morning services are diverted/bustituted this may not be practical. Plus who knows how busy Manchester Airport will be post Covid.....

 

[peters]

Others have already pointed out the major flaw with Northern running the Liverpool - Chester service; the fact it's due to be extended through to Wales (North and South) in the near future. Even last year pre Covid there was one a day each way extended to Wrexham. It's also hard to see any efficiencies available with combining the Liverpool - Chester and Chester - Crewe given that the paths for each service don't match at Chester, and that they're already pretty efficient (without a massive speeding up it's impossible to improve on the current 3 units required for an hourly service on both routes).

If Liverpool does get a regular direct service to Wales then obviously that'll be good for both Liverpool and Wales. However, there's perhaps a risk that TfW Rail will end up running the services for years as an England only service because the aspiration doesn't work out for one reason or another.

I'm not sure one or two services extending to Wrexham is a good argument for it currently being with TfW Rail, I recall when morning peak Mid-Cheshire services went in to platforms 13 and 14 at Piccadilly because they've either just arrived from Chester via Warrington, or where about to form a service to Chester via Warrington. That provided a useful link between the Mid-Cheshire line and Oxford Road station, as well as meaning there was no need for drivers to change end or shunt the train around, even if it meant those alighting at Piccadilly had a longer walk. Yet it seems that wasn't enough for the two Manchester to Chester routes to remain in the same franchise as each other.

 

[craigybagel]

If Liverpool does get a regular direct service to Wales then obviously that'll be good for both Liverpool and Wales. However, there's perhaps a risk that TfW Rail will end up running the services for years as an England only service because the aspiration doesn't work out for one reason or another.

I'm not sure one or two services extending to Wrexham is a good argument for it currently being with TfW Rail, I recall when morning peak Mid-Cheshire services went in to platforms 13 and 14 at Piccadilly because they've either just arrived from Chester via Warrington, or where about to form a service to Chester via Warrington. That provided a useful link between the Mid-Cheshire line and Oxford Road station, as well as meaning there was no need for drivers to change end or shunt the train around, even if it meant those alighting at Piccadilly had a longer walk. Yet it seems that wasn't enough for the two Manchester to Chester routes to remain in the same franchise as each other.

The demand has always been there for a direct service from Liverpool to North Wales given the strong links between the two areas (Less so with Liverpool to South Wales but it's still a sizable enough flo), so it would be very surprising to see the service not come about. The paths are already in place, the stock will be in place, and recruitment for the extra staff has been ongoing for a while now. I agree the token Wrexham service doesn't amount to much at present, but it points to what's to come in the future.

It certainly was more operationally convenient in the days of First North Western that both Manchester - Chester routes were worked by the same operator. The way the franchises were set up then was arguably a lot more logical, with Wales divided into 3 horizontal lines. Sadly, the drive to create an All Wales franchise led to inefficiencies such as this. However, if certain all England services hadn't been left with the Welsh franchise these inefficiencies would only have been even worse.

 

[Djgr]

However neat things look on paper, please do not pass any more work onto Northern for the foreseeable.

They are not able to meet their current obligations with quite a serious shortfall.

 

[peters]

The borders routes on the Wales & Borders franchise are the profitable parts, as they don't have huge funding subsidies like most of the south wales & Cardiff central routes. Why would you get rid of the parts that make you money unless it's for purely political reasons or a mistaken view on how the franchise works ? There are also plans to go more into England on some routes such as extending the Birmingham services to Coventry in the future, as it will increase revenue on the route. Plus the northern franchise is struggling to fulfil its own franchise plans never mind getting more routes & the logistical nightmare that would create.

Surely you're actually giving a reason in favour of a change there. Profits from Cheshire services should not be subsiding Welsh services unless the Welsh franchise pays TfN or DfT for the privilege of operating the profitable routes in England, which should presumably mean they get subsidies from one party and pay a premium to another party.

Public transport in Cheshire is bad enough without a predatory Welsh operator. We already had the two Welsh brothers who owned GHA Coaches, who almost bankrupted Cheshire councils by taking hundreds of thousands in subsides and then going out-of-business overnight, without the Welsh rail operator playing stupid revenue extracting games as well. I was told at one point GHA ran a bus empty from Wrexham to Altrincham every morning because the English services were where they could make the most money. That may not be true but if it is it explains why a Llangollen branded bus occasionally made an appearance a very long way from Llangollen.

 

[Djgr]

Surely you're actually giving a reason in favour of a change there. Profits from Cheshire services should not be subsiding Welsh services unless the Welsh franchise pays TfN or DfT for the privilege of operating the profitable routes in England, which should presumably mean they get subsidies from one party and pay a premium to another party.

Public transport in Cheshire is bad enough without a predatory Welsh operator. We already had the two Welsh brothers who owned GHA Coaches, who almost bankrupted Cheshire councils by taking hundreds of thousands in subsides and then going out-of-business overnight, without the Welsh rail operator playing stupid revenue extracting games as well. I was told at one point GHA ran a bus empty from Wrexham to Altrincham every morning because the English services were where they could make the most money. That may not be true but if it is it explains why a Llangollen branded bus occasionally made an appearance a very long way from Llangollen.

What profits from Cheshire?

How are TfW predatory? As you know a train from North to South Wales has to pass through England?

 

[CBlue]

Surely you're actually giving a reason in favour of a change there. Profits from Cheshire services should not be subsiding Welsh services unless the Welsh franchise pays TfN or DfT for the privilege of operating the profitable routes in England, which should presumably mean they get subsidies from one party and pay a premium to another party.

Public transport in Cheshire is bad enough without a predatory Welsh operator. We already had the two Welsh brothers who owned GHA Coaches, who almost bankrupted Cheshire councils by taking hundreds of thousands in subsides and then going out-of-business overnight, without the Welsh rail operator playing stupid revenue extracting games as well. I was told at one point GHA ran a bus empty from Wrexham to Altrincham every morning because the English services were where they could make the most money. That may not be true but if it is it explains why a Llangollen branded bus occasionally made an appearance a very long way from Llangollen.

What do GHA coaches have to do with TfW operating services through England? What a load of nonsense.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

You'd like to see more services transferred to Northern, and you ask "what was broken with the Arriva Trains Wales franchise"?

I'm only disappointed that your solution doesn't involve transferring responsibility for the entire British railway system to Connex South Central.

 

[craigybagel]

Surely you're actually giving a reason in favour of a change there. Profits from Cheshire services should not be subsiding Welsh services unless the Welsh franchise pays TfN or DfT for the privilege of operating the profitable routes in England, which should presumably mean they get subsidies from one party and pay a premium to another party.

Public transport in Cheshire is bad enough without a predatory Welsh operator. We already had the two Welsh brothers who owned GHA Coaches, who almost bankrupted Cheshire councils by taking hundreds of thousands in subsides and then going out-of-business overnight, without the Welsh rail operator playing stupid revenue extracting games as well. I was told at one point GHA ran a bus empty from Wrexham to Altrincham every morning because the English services were where they could make the most money. That may not be true but if it is it explains why a Llangollen branded bus occasionally made an appearance a very long way from Llangollen.

It's not specifically the parts within England that make the most money, it's throughout the long distance services - most of which happen to cross the border at some point. If they were run by an English based TOC they would be just as guilty using your logic of stealing money from Wales.

You'd like to see more services transferred to Northern, and you ask "what was broken with the Arriva Trains Wales franchise"?

I'm only disappointed that your solution doesn't involve transferring responsibility for the entire British railway system to Connex South Central.

This made me laugh way more then it should, bravo sir.

 

[daodao]

I would propose switches in the other direction, with TfW responsible for all services to/from Chester not run by Avanti or Merseyrail, specifically the 2nd Chester-Manchester Victoria train and the whole of the Mid Cheshire line service. It would be better for the trains for these services to be based at Chester, to reduce dead working. The Northern Fail service on the Mid Cheshire line is a disgrace.

 

[43096]

You'd like to see more services transferred to Northern, and you ask "what was broken with the Arriva Trains Wales franchise"?

That’s a revisionist view of ATW. The reality is they were pretty competent as an operator.

 

[craigybagel]

That’s a revisionist view of ATW. The reality is they were pretty competent as an operator.

One thing that has amused me lately is how often on this site I'm seeing people talking about how great ATW was and how things have gone downhill since TfW took over - and yet 3 years ago in the dieing days of the old regime people couldn't wait to see the back of Arriva. I spent an awful lot of time back then having to defend them.

In truth, most of the problems with the railways in Wales then and now come down to the same problem - decades of government incompetence. Arriva were caught up in that with the constraints of a ridiculous 15 years zero growth franchise, and TfW are stuck trying to play catch up now.

 

[tbtc]

I can see it making sense if the Chester - Crewe service moves to Northern - that'd mean they had three services per hour at Chester (the Crewe service, the slow Manchester via Altrincham and the fast Manchester via Warrington that currently extends to West Yorkshire) - meaning Northern would be the second biggest users of Chester station (after Merseyrail).

Given pressure on other depots, having a presence at Chester would remove a bit of dead running.

Plus, having a smaller depot (at Chester) may allow them to focus resources better - given the way that there are reasons for and against concentrating resources at large depots)

The borders routes on the Wales & Borders franchise are the profitable parts, as they don't have huge funding subsidies like most of the south wales & Cardiff central routes

I'm not sure that any two/three coach DMU service is actually "profitable" - maybe a few with sufficient First Class and long distance passengers (e.g. TPE) - I doubt the Chester - Crewe shuttle makes enough money to qualify though

That’s a revisionist view of ATW. The reality is they were pretty competent as an operator.

Agreed - the Government gave them a "no growth" franchise (which was the same as the "Provincial" bits of EMT/ Northern/ GWR etc that had franchises starting around the same time as ATW, so it wasn't anything specific to Welsh operations - all of the ex-Provincial areas seemed to get the same "stead as she goes" terms).

Arriva met those terms but faced a lot of criticism along the lines of "why won't a heavily subsidised franchise order brand new trains/ double lengths/ increase frequencies" - from people who didn't appreciate the way that franchises operate.

Not helped by the fact that the Government input was more focussed on the "premium" Holyhead - Cardiff service and other "fringes" like throwing resources at Fishguard/ Aberystwyth rather than making improvements on busier lines around Cardiff. That's not Arriva's fault, that's more about politicians focussing more on certain constituencies.

It's always going to be a set of routes requiring large subsidy (like Northern), so really any decisions are taken by Government - the franchisee just has to fit around those demands - there's not going to be much scope to make commercial decisions about expansion without increased subsidy.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

That’s a revisionist view of ATW. The reality is they were pretty competent as an operator.

If you search through my posting history (I wouldn't recommend it unless you have very a high boredom threshold...) it was consistently my experience throughout the years in which I travelled up and down the Marches when they ran the service.

Maybe ATW were pretty competent in Treforest - happy to take your word on it for that one. But a rammed 1tp3h Sunday train in Church Stretton, for which ATW charged an astronomical premium compared to the adjacent (F)GWR-set fares? I'm happy to stand by the word "broken".

 

[43096]

If you search through my posting history (I wouldn't recommend it unless you have very a high boredom threshold...) it was consistently my experience throughout the years in which I travelled up and down the Marches when they ran the service.

Maybe ATW were pretty competent in Treforest - happy to take your word on it for that one. But a rammed 1tp3h Sunday train in Church Stretton, for which ATW charged an astronomical premium compared to the adjacent (F)GWR-set fares? I'm happy to stand by the word "broken".

Thank you for proving my point.

Service frequency is set in the franchise agreement (i.e. by Government) and fares are regulated by the Government. Suggest you direct your ire elsewhere...

 

[Doctor Fegg]

and you ask "what was broken with the Arriva Trains Wales franchise"?

^^^^ Read it again. "The Arriva Trains Wales franchise". Not specifically Arriva's running of that franchise. I did not apportion blame between Arriva and the UK Government.

 

[43096]

^^^^ Read it again. "The Arriva Trains Wales franchise". Not specifically Arriva's running of that franchise. I did not apportion blame between Arriva and the UK Government.

And then re-read your next response - no mention of "franchise", just comments about ATW.