Should South Wales to Manchester trains be formed of more than 3 coaches?

[Purple Orange]

It can be quicker at times to change at Crewe when travelling from north Wales to Manchester, the platforms at Crewe towards Manchester are usually adjacent, but not so convenient when travelling from Manchester.

The other issue is when you get to Crewe the next train to Manchester maybe an already crowded TfW 2 Coach train from Milford Haven!

I often use the TfW service from South Wales to Manchester, from Wilmslow so I only see how heavily loaded it is for the last 2-3 stops. This is a topic for a different thread, but how much of an argument is there for extending this train to more than 3 coaches for services south of Crewe?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I often use the TfW service from South Wales to Manchester, from Wilmslow so I only see how heavily loaded it is for the last 2-3 stops. This is a topic for a different thread, but how much of an argument is there for extending this train to more than 3 coaches for services south of Crewe?

With the coming of the Class 197s, these will be 5-car trains with First Class (a 3 and a 2).

 

[Purple Orange]

With the coming of the Class 197s, these will be 5-car trains with First Class (a 3 and a 2).

Oh I did not realise they were putting 5-car trains on the Manchester routes. Good to know. Cheers

 

[Llandudno]

With the coming of the Class 197s, these will be 5-car trains with First Class (a 3 and a 2).

Jam tomorrow...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Jam tomorrow...

TfW don't have the stock to fix it until the 197s arrive.

In the meantime, just use Avanti or Northern to get to Manchester.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Oh I did not realise they were putting 5-car trains on the Manchester routes. Good to know. Cheers

I always dreaded standing on Wilmslow station and seeing that only a 2-car Class 175 was deemed worthy for a Manchester to "the far west reaches" of Wales.

 

[Purple Orange]

I always dreaded standing on Wilmslow station and seeing that only a 2-car Class 175 was deemed worthy for a Manchester to "the far west reaches" of Wales.

Frustrating, but the overriding feeling I have is that it is just not good enough.

5-car only planned for south Wales to Manchester - we don't know how many cars TfW planned to use on north Wales to Manchester.

Well I will be honest and say I am happy with 5-cars on the WCML.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

With the coming of the Class 197s, these will be 5-car trains with First Class (a 3 and a 2).

I remember FNW promising double 175s on North Wales-Manchester/Birmingham routes (peak hours). It never happened.
Reliability was so poor they never implemented the full 175 service, and when ATW took over they decided half-size trains went further (and used them on Manchester-Cardiff as well).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I remember FNW promising double 175s on North Wales-Manchester/Birmingham routes (peak hours). It never happened.
Reliability was so poor they never implemented the full 175 service, and when ATW took over they decided half-size trains went further (and used them on Manchester-Cardiff as well).

There cannot be all that many services, between a capital city and a major city in the north of England, where a two-coach DMU was viewed as sufficient by a TOC.

 

[peters]

In recent years, it has been quicker and more comfortable to travel from Chester to Manchester changing at Crewe than to travel on the supposedly direct line via Northwich.

I wonder whether the consultants who looked at the options available thought the benefits of Chester having a faster direct service to Stockport and gaining 2tph to Northwich, Knutsford and Altrincham outweighs the disadvantage of 10 minutes extra on the journey time from Shotton to Manchester.

Reliability was so poor they never implemented the full 175 service, and when ATW took over they decided half-size trains went further (and used them on Manchester-Cardiff as well).

What did Wales and Borders (or was it Wales and West) use on the South Wales services before they got the trains which had been ordered for the Cumbria services to use?

There cannot be all that many services, between a capital city and a major city in the north of England, where a two-coach DMU was viewed as sufficient by a TOC.

Cardiff is the 3rd largest UK capital city by population, Belfast is the only one which is smaller.

Nottingham seems to have a similar population to Cardiff but then Nottingham to Manchester trains call at Sheffield and continue to Liverpool, both of which are larger than Cardiff. So it's difficult to find an equivalent service.

 

[krus_aragon]

What did Wales and Borders (or was it Wales and West) use on the South Wales services before they got the trains which had been ordered for the Cumbria services to use

158s (in Alphaline livery) by and large.

 

[Purple Orange]

There cannot be all that many services, between a capital city and a major city in the north of England, where a two-coach DMU was viewed as sufficient by a TOC.

I think the status of ‘capital city’ rely overstates the importance of Cardiff relative to other cities in the UK. If the Cardiff-Manchester service went via Birmingham I could see the reasoning for it being an 8-car intercity service, but as it does not, it seems it’s principal purpose in the north west is commuting in to Manchester. I agree that it should certainly be longer than a 2 or 3 car DMU and that all services on the WCML in to Manchester need to be at least 6-car trains.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I often use the TfW service from South Wales to Manchester, from Wilmslow so I only see how heavily loaded it is for the last 2-3 stops. This is a topic for a different thread, but how much of an argument is there for extending this train to more than 3 coaches for services south of Crewe?

For what it's worth, before COVID (and face masks) pushed me off the railways (hopefully temporarily) I found it difficult to get a seat out of Cardiff westbound on the Milford Haven / Carmarthen trains on quite a number of occasions. I think the main line between Cardiff and Swansea (at least on the fast services) also needs more than 3 coaches but is possibly not quite as overcrowded as between Crewe and Manchester. Not sure about Newport to Shrewsbury as I've only used that bit of line a few times (I tend to either head from Whitland/Carmarthen to Cardiff if heading to south Wales or southern England or from Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury for Manchester, northern England and Scotland).

 

[HST43257]

How about a single unit from SW Wales to Swansea, then an extra unit comes on from Swansea to Manchester. Saves a diagram or 2.

If it’s 5 coach trains, have 3 coaches all the way through and the extra 2 from Swansea to Manchester

 

[Rhydgaled]

How about a single unit from SW Wales to Swansea, then an extra unit comes on from Swansea to Manchester. Saves a diagram or 2.

If it’s 5 coach trains, have 3 coaches all the way through and the extra 2 from Swansea to Manchester

Yes and no. If we had suitable trains (the only ones I can think of being 158s and 159s, and there's zero chance of the latter being available) then I would say that was a good idea except for the fact that I feel there is little value in a through service between S.W. Wales and Manchester. I would have three seperate services:

• Swansea to Manchester (5 coaches)
• Swansea to Carmarthen / Milford Haven (2 or 3 coaches)
• Cardiff C. to Carmarthen / Milford Haven (probably 3 coaches) fast avoiding Swansea

Doing this provides faster services between S.W. Wales and Cardiff and gives a wider range of suitable stock (removing the need for portion working makes 175s, LHCS and maybe even 80x suitable for the Swansea-Manchester services).

Transport for Wales' plan however is to do much as you suggest, but using stock which is unsuitable in most respects (class 197s) - the one thing they have got right being the provision of end gangways. One major difference between your sugestion and TfW's plan is that a subfleet of class 197s is intended to have a first class sections - these would be 3-car units and first class provision has only been promised between Swansea and Manchester. This suggests (but doesn't entirely confirm) that TfW plan to use only 2 coaches west of Swansea (a reduction compared to some services at present) whereas, if you were to use portion working at Swansea, I would agree with you that the portion running further west should be 3 coaches.

 

[Snow1964]

I would assume if going to divide a 3+2 car train and only run one west of Swansea then better to run the 3 car

Isn’t the first class only about third of a coach, so still getting about 40 extra standard seats (haven’t looked up seat quantity) over a 2 car.

I’m not sure the comparison of using Cardiff population is that accurate, as any train from Cardiff area might also be carrying passengers from the Valleys, Newport area, Glamorgan (and not just City or county of Cardiff). Realistically nearer half million which puts it on par with Bristol area

 

[HST43257]

Yes and no. If we had suitable trains (the only ones I can think of being 158s and 159s, and there's zero chance of the latter being available) then I would say that was a good idea except for the fact that I feel there is little value in a through service between S.W. Wales and Manchester. I would have three seperate services:

• Swansea to Manchester (5 coaches)
• Swansea to Carmarthen / Milford Haven (2 or 3 coaches)
• Cardiff C. to Carmarthen / Milford Haven (probably 3 coaches) fast avoiding Swansea

Doing this provides faster services between S.W. Wales and Cardiff and gives a wider range of suitable stock (removing the need for portion working makes 175s, LHCS and maybe even 80x suitable for the Swansea-Manchester services).

That, whilst I like service upgrades, just seems to not be needed. Why duplicate so much and take so many more paths when you can supply all the needs in one service?

I’d even suggest, with a potential staycation boom lasting a couple of years, making Pembroke and, at least, Tenby hourly (I’m aware changes may need to be made).

So there’s 2 ways to do this west of Swansea:

1tp2h to each of Milford Haven and Pembroke
1tp2h GWR extension from Swansea to Tenby/Pembroke

OR

1tph to Pembroke
1tp2h to Milford Haven
1tp2h to Carmarthen slow


I think I prefer top option

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

The south Wales - Manchester services really can't be compared to Intercity services elsewhere. Yes, there are passengers who use the services for long distance travel but the vast majority of passengers are just travelling for one or two stops as these trains are effectively the backbone of services on the Marcher line.

The 197s inevitably involve an element of compromise as they have to serve short distance commuters, long distance passengers and leisure travellers.

This won't effect our friend in Wilmslow but the introduction of the hourly Liverpool - Shrewsbury and two hourly Liverpool - Cardiff services will mark a major increase in capacity over much of the route.

 

[cle]

This service does so many things. Crewe-Manchester it should be long and electric, providing a faster commuting frequency for Cheshire.

It's then a rural but often, sole service for large swathes of England and Wales. It then provides commuting in and out of Cardiff and Newport (for London from Aber, Hereford etc) - and then in and out of Cardiff west and Swansea.

It is also Cardiff to Manchester, and Cardiff to Crewe (for Liverpool and WCML/Scotland).

Cardiff is not so platform and path constrained to need a single through service. Nor does Swansea need a Manchester service especially, or anywhere west of there. But I can understand why it exists.

Better would be a more limited stop Cardiff-Manchester service: Newport / Hereford / Shrewsbury / Crewe / Wilmslow / Stockport. 5 car and with first class.

And then another 'pan-Cardiff' service could be overlaid from West of/Swansea to Crewe - no path/platform issues vs Manchester - which offers a lot of connections to everywhere (and still quicker than HOW).

There will also be a new Liverpool via Halton service coming for the Marches, on top of those up to Chester/N Wales, so additional frequencies to Aber/Cwmbran can come from those.

 

[muddythefish]

There cannot be all that many services, between a capital city and a major city in the north of England, where a two-coach DMU was viewed as sufficient by a TOC.

Manchester - Cardiff trains via Shrewsbury were 10-12 coaches with restaurant cars in steam days. Such are the mighty fallen!

 

[6Gman]

Manchester - Cardiff trains via Shrewsbury were 10-12 coaches with restaurant cars in steam days. Such are the mighty fallen!

And also ran infrequently.

I have the 1956/57 Winter details in front of me:

0910 Manchester-Swansea. 9 coaches from Mcr (including a Full Brake). Dropped three of them at Crewe; picked up two from Shrewsbury. No refreshment service.
1455 Manchester-Cardiff. 11 coaches from Mcr (including two Full Brakes). Dropped seven (!) of them at Crewe (for Birmingham), but picked up nine (!) at Crewe (including a Full Brake and a Siphon G). So left Crewe with 11 passenger vehicles, but only six went to Cardiff, the others went to Plymouth. No refreshment service.

I think I'd prefer the current service.

 

[HSTEd]

If we make the (not necessarily correct) assumption that most people are travelling between Manchester and South Wales, wouldn't it be better to portion work a South Wales unit off of a Manchester-SW XC service, splitting in the vicinity of Worcester?

Doesn't have to use the welsh marches does it?


[EDIT: Is Manchester-XC gone completely or just axed because corona?

EDIT #2: The layout in the vicinity of Worcester appears to just be madness, so it would probably have to be a split at an additional stop at the new Bromsgrove station, unless you want to divert all XC trains into Foregate street and reverse one portion]

 

[Dai Corner]

If we make the (not necessarily correct) assumption that most people are travelling between Manchester and South Wales, wouldn't it be better to portion work a South Wales unit off of a Manchester-SW XC service, splitting in the vicinity of Worcester?

Doesn't have to use the welsh marches does it?

Or make them change at Cheltenham or Bristol Parkway. TfW would lose some revenue though.

 

[muddythefish]

And also ran infrequently.

I have the 1956/57 Winter details in front of me:

0910 Manchester-Swansea. 9 coaches from Mcr (including a Full Brake). Dropped three of them at Crewe; picked up two from Shrewsbury. No refreshment service.
1455 Manchester-Cardiff. 11 coaches from Mcr (including two Full Brakes). Dropped seven (!) of them at Crewe (for Birmingham), but picked up nine (!) at Crewe (including a Full Brake and a Siphon G). So left Crewe with 11 passenger vehicles, but only six went to Cardiff, the others went to Plymouth. No refreshment service.

I think I'd prefer the current service.

Thanks for that.

We travelled Cardiff-Manchester circa 1962 and think I remember having a meal on the train with family, although it was a long time ago and recollections are hazy. We were hauled by steam (Castle?) from south Wales to Shrewsbury, with a diesel, a Brush Type 4 IIRC, taking over from there but again this all from memory. The compartment coaches, presumably Mk 1s, were lovely and rather more comfy than a Class 175 and befitting of a long distance train

 

[bramling]

There cannot be all that many services, between a capital city and a major city in the north of England, where a two-coach DMU was viewed as sufficient by a TOC.

I know Birmingham isn’t quite in the north, however I give you Chiltern’s London to Birmingham service, where 2-car trains certainly show up on some services.

 

[zwk500]

If we make the (not necessarily correct) assumption that most people are travelling between Manchester and South Wales, wouldn't it be better to portion work a South Wales unit off of a Manchester-SW XC service, splitting in the vicinity of Worcester?

Doesn't have to use the welsh marches does it?

Does this additional service work on the single line from Hereford towards Worcester (can't remember where it goes back to double)? I'd also guess that Shrewsbury is quite a key interchange for Wrexham traffic, and Crewe for traffic off the North Wales Coast. For those doing the whole route, how does the TfW service compare with a normal-times XC from Manchester changing at either Gloucester or Bristol Parkway?

EDIT #2: The layout in the vicinity of Worcester appears to just be madness, so it would probably have to be a split at an additional stop at the new Bromsgrove station, unless you want to divert all XC trains into Foregate street and reverse one portion]

If you were wanting to Portion work wouldn't Gloucester be the easier place to split? Although platform capacity may be an issue there.

 

[Rhydgaled]

That, whilst I like service upgrades, just seems to not be needed. Why duplicate so much and take so many more paths when you can supply all the needs in one service?

It's only 1tph extra, how's that taking 'so many more paths'? One path, yes. The extra service would have fewer stops (should be Cardiff, Port Talbot, Morriston, Llanelli, Carmarthen in my view, possibly without the Morriston stop) which isn't really duplicating that much. To answer your question 'why', it takes less than 80 minutes to drive from Carmarthen to Cardiff, by train with a stop at Swansea is more like 100 minutes. I reckon bypassing Swansea would allow you to cut that to 85 minutes with the possibility of future enhancements (to deliver the Welsh Government's rail acceleration ambitions) cutting that further to something that is actually time competitive. You are never going to make a journey via Swansea time-competitive against the M4.

I’d even suggest, with a potential staycation boom lasting a couple of years, making Pembroke and, at least, Tenby hourly (I’m aware changes may need to be made).

So there’s 2 ways to do this west of Swansea:

1tp2h to each of Milford Haven and Pembroke
1tp2h GWR extension from Swansea to Tenby/Pembroke

OR

1tph to Pembroke
1tp2h to Milford Haven
1tp2h to Carmarthen slow

I believe the single line between Pembroke Dock and Tenby is occupied all day long Mon-Sat in the pre-COVID timetable. I'm not sure about Tenby-Whitland - that might be possible to do hourly with a unit that accelerates quickly but a half-hourly service between Whitland and Swansea (a combination of Milford and Pembroke Dock services) doesn't appear to be possible due to the round trip times between Whitland and Tenby/Milford being so radically different. It needs a loop at Templeton I think (which would limit the Pembroke & Tenby branch to a train every two hours unless you also put another new loop in west of Tenby).

Nor does Swansea need a Manchester service especially, or anywhere west of there. But I can understand why it exists.

I think Swansea should have a through fast service to somewhere well north of the M4 corridor - doesn't have to be Manchester but if you take the Manchester away you should do something like extend the Cardiff-Nottingham back to Swansea in its place.

If we make the (not necessarily correct) assumption that most people are travelling between Manchester and South Wales, wouldn't it be better to portion work a South Wales unit off of a Manchester-SW XC service, splitting in the vicinity of Worcester?

Doesn't have to use the welsh marches does it?

Interesting; I assumed using the Welsh marches route would be faster but is it? Forget portion working; if you gave XC a big shakeup and did the following would Swansea/Cardiff to Manchester be faster with XC than TfW?

• Swansea - Cardiff - Worcestershire Parkway - Birmingham - Manchester
• Penzance - Plymouth - Bristol - Birmingham - Leeds - Edinburgh - Aberdeen
• Paignton - Bristol - Worcestershire Parkway - Birmingham - Nottingham
• Manchester - Birmingham - Reading - Bournemouth
• Southampton - Reading - Birmingham - Doncaster - York - Scarborough

 

[30907]

Interesting; I assumed using the Welsh marches route would be faster but is it? Forget portion working; if you gave XC a big shakeup and did the following would Swansea/Cardiff to Manchester be faster with XC than TfW?

• Swansea - Cardiff - Worcestershire Parkway - Birmingham - Manchester

Assuming you made the standard intermediate stops, Cardiff-Manchester would be 3 1/2hr via Brum. Marches with several stops is 15min faster.

(The 1970s Cross Country "interval" timetable allowed just under 4hr with 15min at New St, but in those days the Marches was Crewe-Cardiff only, and less than 2 hourly.)

 

[HSTEd]

Assuming you made the standard intermediate stops, Cardiff-Manchester would be 3 1/2hr via Brum. Marches with several stops is 15min faster.

Is that it?

I was expecting a dramatically slower result, I must admit.

What is currently the default route for people in South Wales to reach Birmingham?

 

[cle]

Is that it?

I was expecting a dramatically slower result, I must admit.

What is currently the default route for people in South Wales to reach Birmingham?

Change in Cardiff, or join in Cardiff for the Nottingham service.

There is no real XC (in the traditional sense) operation out of Cardiff any more.