Should TfL Consider building a 3rd Platform at Highbury and Islington?

[A60stock]

Moderator note - split from :

Class 710 LO

Hi all, apologies if there's already a thread on this unit but I couldn't seem to find any. With a lot of new units being built over the next few years, I find it remarkable how quiet the 710s progress is, considering they're meant to be in service in little over a year. Does anyone have...

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There's no reason why these would have to run using 378s or 710s, especially given London Bridge post-rebuild can cope with 10 or 12 cars trains in all of its terminal platforms.

The ELL capacity upgrade originates long before the pandemic, the idea is to raise the core frequency from 16tph to 20tph, which would mean an extra 4tph to dole out among the four southern branches. Since West Croydon is near capacity and New Cross trains are lightly used, it was reported by London Reconnections that this would likely mean and increase from 4tph to 6tph to Clapham Junction and the same to Crystal Palace, with all trains still running into Surrey Quays (which is getting major redevelopment and may need more trains) and off to Dalston/H&I.

I do wonder whether at some point, tfl will have to consider building a third terminal platform at H&I in order to manage higher service frequencies.

Out of interest, since the ELL now has multiple major southern destinations, why was it chosen to retain New Cross as a terminus? Seems like more of an operational inconvenience with the station only being on the route due to the legacy/historical route of the former East London Line. I guess in essence, trains terminating at NX are pretty much only there to serve the purpose of boosting the core section frequency?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I do wonder whether at some point, tfl will have to consider building a third terminal platform at H&I in order to manage higher service frequencies.

Out of interest, since the ELL now has multiple major southern destinations, why was it chosen to retain New Cross as a terminus? Seems like more of an operational inconvenience with the station only being on the route due to the legacy/historical route of the former East London Line. I guess in essence, trains terminating at NX are pretty much only there to serve the purpose of boosting the core section frequency?

Many of the East London line trains terminate at Dalston Junction (two centre platforms for reversing with a through platform on each side). So Highbury and Islington will only need to cater for roughly half. For the two Northern termini together there are four platforms for train services to turn round in - that is five per hour each platform. That's with no conflicts with non-ELR services.

Four destinations at the Southern end does seem an imbalance though until you consider that three of them involve sharing tracks with other operators.

 

[JonathanH]

Out of interest, since the ELL now has multiple major southern destinations, why was it chosen to retain New Cross as a terminus?

How would passengers connect to stations in South East London if the ELL didn't run to New Cross?

 

[Horizon22]

Out of interest, since the ELL now has multiple major southern destinations, why was it chosen to retain New Cross as a terminus? Seems like more of an operational inconvenience with the station only being on the route due to the legacy/historical route of the former East London Line. I guess in essence, trains terminating at NX are pretty much only there to serve the purpose of boosting the core section frequency?

Pretty much yes - if it wasn't used it would just be wasted capacity as its a terminus with no other route.

How would passengers connect to stations in South East London if the ELL didn't run to New Cross?

How much interchange is there really taking place at New Cross?

 

[ijmad]

How much interchange is there really taking place at New Cross?

Anecdotally the New Cross trains are very obviously the least used of the four services, but I figure there might be more passengers once the new housing developments are well underway at Surrey Quays, since the Northbounds from New Cross will present themselves there mostly empty in the mornings, and vice versa in the evenings.

 

[JonathanH]

How much interchange is there really taking place at New Cross?

To the extent that there is interchange, what route is it going to take instead?

 

[Horizon22]

To the extent that there is interchange, what route is it going to take instead?

Just people exiting, not interchanging.

 

[JonathanH]

Just people exiting, not interchanging.

But interchanging at New Cross is possible. It isn't a dead end. Avoids going to London Bridge to pick up trains to Lewisham and beyond.

 

[cle]

It would obviously have been more useful getting to Lewisham. Not that there is anywhere for it to go.

But yes, New Cross is also a turnback for 4tph for the core which are not full.

As for Highbury: Camden Road could have played a part, even if for 2tph extra. I would say Cally Road's older platforms could be used too.

But boring answer - I would say that Dalston is optimally set up to turn more.

 

[JonathanH]

But boring answer - I would say that Dalston is optimally set up to turn more.

Yes

 

[Horizon22]

But interchanging at New Cross is possible. It isn't a dead end. Avoids going to London Bridge to pick up trains to Lewisham and beyond.

Obviously, but my question was "how much" and I would suggest its not loads when New Cross Gate is a 10 minute walk away.

 

[zwk500]

How would passengers connect to stations in South East London if the ELL didn't run to New Cross?

To the extent that there is interchange, what route is it going to take instead?

by exiting at New Cross Gate and turning left. It's already a fairly well-advertised OSI between NXG and New Cross.

The advantage of retaining New Cross is that if something catastrophic happened on both the NXG and SLL lines the ELL has an isolated bolt-hole with which it can still run a service on it's separate section.

 

[EllieAquitrain]

by exiting at New Cross Gate and turning left. It's already a fairly well-advertised OSI between NXG and New Cross.

The advantage of retaining New Cross is that if something catastrophic happened on both the NXG and SLL lines the ELL has an isolated bolt-hole with which it can still run a service on it's separate section.

I.e., the branch probably wouldn't have been built if the ELL was completely new-build, but given that it already exists it's a useful bit of infrastructure to keep around?

 

[mister-sparky]

You clearly haven’t used New Cross then. Every time I’ve used it or travelled past it, the ELL platform is always busy

 

[Cricketer8for9]

To some degree New Cross is useful as it provides at least four trains an hour onto which passengers at New Cross Gate (by walking to New Cross) and Surrey Quays can board. Certainly pre Covid the Overground trains through New Cross Gate were very full, and trying to get on at New Cross would have been a sensible decision.

 

[NSE]

I’ve used New Cross about 4/5 times and every time was to interchange between SE and LO. Each time was off peak and a healthy number didn’t same. I’m not suggesting it’s enough numbers to be the hub of Crossrail 3, but certainly enough to warrant its existence.