Should Thameslink appear on the Tube map? (Now expected to appear in December on Tube map)

[pdeaves]

9. Nunhead is on the wrong side of ELL

I think that need not necessarily matter. If it is a schematic journey planner it is the links that matter and there is no rail-based link from ELL to Nunhead. If it is a geographically correct map that is only one of thousands of issues! The diagram tries to be both and does not fully achieve either.

 

[Cdd89]

8. Not convinced Blackfriars needed to show cross-river - could be tidied up

The “square” of map between Blackfriars and London Bridge is an absolute tangled mess of similarly shaded lines, isn’t it? London Bridge is depicted further south on the Rail & Tube map (and was on the 1990 Thameslink-including tube map), and that gives more space for the spaghetti of rail services in that area.

 

[Mojo]

7. Doesn't St Pancras Thameslink have level boarding via the hump?

I thought this, but I do remember seeing a few years ago that staff still needed to deploy a ramp (not the usual design but a very cut down version that looked about 25% the length of a normal yellow ramp) on top of the hump.

 

[londonteacher]

Chalfont & Latimer, Chigwell

Both of these are London Underground stations so have every right to be on the Tube Map.

Turkey Street

A TFL managed station with TFL (London Overground) services only.

East Croydon is not served by TFL services - yes the Tramlink is outside but the actual station is not served by TFL services.

Ultimately this has been decided by the DfT and TFL and whether we agree with it or not it is happening. We should be lucky that they are still even producing these maps in the first place - with so many apps such as TFL's own TFL Go and things like Citymapper and Google Maps the likelihood of these paper maps continuing much longer is becoming less and less. Maps will still remain in stations on signage but the world is moving on and with a drive to become ticketless and paperless pocket maps will not last long.

 

[Bald Rick]

I thought this, but I do remember seeing a few years ago that staff still needed to deploy a ramp (not the usual design but a very cut down version that looked about 25% the length of a normal yellow ramp) on top of the hump.

That’s unusual. I’ve seen several wheelchair users ‘board themselves’ there without a ramp and no difficulty.

 

[londonteacher]

That’s unusual. I’ve seen several wheelchair users ‘board themselves’ there without a ramp and no difficulty.

Agreed, that was the whole point of the humps being installed.

 

[Mojo]

That’s unusual. I’ve seen several wheelchair users ‘board themselves’ there without a ramp and no difficulty.

I thought I had read it here too also (having witnessed it myself but I don't remember when). There is a thread from 2018 which details exactly the procedure that I saw, but at St Pancras:

St Pancras Thameslink Harrington humps

I noticed the other day that the brand-new Harrington humps at St Pancras don't actually provide level boarding. There is a step of about 1-1.5" upwards to the train, and a similar gap between the end of the stepboard and the platform. This isn't massive, but it would mean that simply wheeling...

www.railforums.co.uk

(Ignore the slightly incorrect thread title, as these are not Harrington humps)

 

[Ianno87]

Both of these are London Underground stations so have every right to be on the Tube Map.

A TFL managed station with TFL (London Overground) services only.

East Croydon is not served by TFL services - yes the Tramlink is outside but the actual station is not served by TFL services.

Ultimately this has been decided by the DfT and TFL and whether we agree with it or not it is happening. We should be lucky that they are still even producing these maps in the first place - with so many apps such as TFL's own TFL Go and things like Citymapper and Google Maps the likelihood of these paper maps continuing much longer is becoming less and less. Maps will still remain in stations on signage but the world is moving on and with a drive to become ticketless and paperless pocket maps will not last long.

Comes back to "what is the point of the tube map?" How many people actually go to Chigwell and need to consult on a map as to where it is, as opposed to East Croydon?

If the objective of the map is wayfinding around London generally, then inclusion of East Croydon is more logical than Chigwell.

If the objective of the map is TfL advertising its' own services, then maybe not. But the existence or not of a map probably has little bearing on whether you actually want to travel to Chigwell by tube or not!

 

[Mojo]

On the other hand, for irregular travellers, how many will actually have any use or benefit of National Rail train services? There are certainly very few tourist attractions reached by National Rail compared to London Underground/DLR, but it would probably be useful for people to know the end of the line of LU lines so they know what destination they are looking out for on signage.

 

[LeeLivery]

I think that need not necessarily matter. If it is a schematic journey planner it is the links that matter and there is no rail-based link from ELL to Nunhead. If it is a geographically correct map that is only one of thousands of issues! The diagram tries to be both and does not fully achieve either.

I can't argue with that - just being picky really!

The “square” of map between Blackfriars and London Bridge is an absolute tangled mess of similarly shaded lines, isn’t it? London Bridge is depicted further south on the Rail & Tube map (and was on the 1990 Thameslink-including tube map), and that gives more space for the spaghetti of rail services in that area.

Pushing London Bridge down could definitely use the space better

I thought I had read it here too also (having witnessed it myself but I don't remember when). There is a thread from 2018 which details exactly the procedure that I saw, but at St Pancras:

St Pancras Thameslink Harrington humps

I noticed the other day that the brand-new Harrington humps at St Pancras don't actually provide level boarding. There is a step of about 1-1.5" upwards to the train, and a similar gap between the end of the stepboard and the platform. This isn't massive, but it would mean that simply wheeling...

www.railforums.co.uk

(Ignore the slightly incorrect thread title, as these are not Harrington humps)

Ah, thank you.

 

[Cletus]

One of Diamond Geezer's commenters has noticed a mistake

But just look at the mess around Hackbridge. Is it an island of Zone 4 in a sea of Zone 5 or can one travel to Mitcham Junction on a single zone fare? Tim Roll-Pickering | 17.12.20 - 1:38 p.m. | #

I think that may be a genuine tube map error, Tim. Hackbridge to Mitcham Junction is all in Zone 4, but the map shows it passing through Zone 5.

With a follow-up post today

diamond geezer

diamondgeezer.blogspot.com

 

[Kilopylae]

I repeat the view that the Tube map should be turn-up-and-go services, which in my opinion is probably about 4 tph per direction.

There is a map on wiki of all the lines that have at least one train every ten minutes:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Greater_London_rail_frequency_map.svg

On the other hand, for irregular travellers, how many will actually have any use or benefit of National Rail train services? There are certainly very few tourist attractions reached by National Rail compared to London Underground/DLR, but it would probably be useful for people to know the end of the line of LU lines so they know what destination they are looking out for on signage.

This is a fair point

 

[heenan73]

I honestly cannot understand why Thameslink was ever removed (at least the central area bits). And I can't understand why they're saying 'temporarily' for covid. Travel is travel, same good information is needed whenever you travel. If Thameslink isn't justified, then neither is Overground, or the rural bits of the Metropolitan.
This is nothing to do with transport, and everything to do with politics and egos. Some sad idiot somewhere feels threatened. It really is that simple.

 

[Skimble19]

I’m quite disappointed with the evident lack of effort TfL have put into this. Whilst it was obvious they didn’t want to do it, they didn’t have to make it quite so blatant by giving us this utter mess.

 

[heenan73]

I repeat the view that the Tube map should be turn-up-and-go services, which in my opinion is probably about 4 tph per direction.

And that would includes Thameslink services, certainly between West Hampstead/Finsbury Park and Streatham/East Croydon/Bromley South, possibly more (It would also include some Southeastern Metro Services; the tube is much more sparse in SE London).
TfL's job is to provide the best possible services for people in London, and the best information. If someone else (GTR in this case) is providing a useful service, TfL are being silly/spiteful/childish by excluding those services.
The only justification I can think of is a service more crowded than the tube; not the case here. Since the new Thameslink trains and timetable, the service could actually provide some relief for the Victoria and Northern lines. The effect on the Bakerloo and Piccadilly is probably minimal either way.

 

[spinba11]

I thought I had read it here too also (having witnessed it myself but I don't remember when). There is a thread from 2018 which details exactly the procedure that I saw, but at St Pancras:

St Pancras Thameslink Harrington humps

I noticed the other day that the brand-new Harrington humps at St Pancras don't actually provide level boarding. There is a step of about 1-1.5" upwards to the train, and a similar gap between the end of the stepboard and the platform. This isn't massive, but it would mean that simply wheeling...

www.railforums.co.uk

(Ignore the slightly incorrect thread title, as these are not Harrington humps)

The blob at St Pancreas is wron, I can confirm it is step free to train.

 

[Ianno87]

The blob at St Pancreas is wron, I can confirm it is step free to train.

Unless a technicality on the grounds of the occasional services that use the high level platorms?

 

[rebmcr]

I’m quite disappointed with the evident lack of effort TfL have put into this. Whilst it was obvious they didn’t want to do it, they didn’t have to make it quite so blatant by giving us this utter mess.

I reckon they've put the whole Zone 6 coverage in because it makes it easier to do passenger studies in a year and condlude it's "too confusing".

If they had only put London Bridge/Elephant & Castle to St Pancras/Kentish Town then it would end up being permanent.

 

[spinba11]

Unless a technicality on the grounds of the occasional services that use the high level platorms?

Good point but under that logic Blackfriars should be step free to platform, I still think it’s a mistake.

 

[Horizon22]

I think Thameslink core was a perfectly reasonable idea. However this snake of S. London trains basically makes it a quasi-Rail and Tube Map. They really should have just stuck arrows from St. Pancras and London Bridge / Elephant & Castle.

On this basis, there's no particularly reason Southern into London Bridge or Southeastern into Charing Cross / Cannon Street aren't on the map for their tube-like frequencies - especially the London Bridge/Cannon Street/Charing Cross sections.

 

[Hadders]

I think the time has come for the tube map to show all services but in zones 1 and 2 only, and leave the rest for the London & South East Rail and Tube map.

 

[PTR 444]

I think the time has come for the tube map to show all services but in zones 1 and 2 only, and leave the rest for the London & South East Rail and Tube map.

I second this

 

[Horizon22]

I think the time has come for the tube map to show all services but in zones 1 and 2 only, and leave the rest for the London & South East Rail and Tube map.

Suppose for the "Tube" map that's something TfL won't contemplate. They like to "Londonise" everything, one instancewhere TfL Rail who constantly say "change here for National Rail services" conveniently forgetting they are a NR service to try to appear different.

 

[davetheguard]

I think the time has come for the tube map to show all services but in zones 1 and 2 only, and leave the rest for the London & South East Rail and Tube map.

That sounds like an eminently sensible way forward to me.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think the time has come for the tube map to show all services but in zones 1 and 2 only, and leave the rest for the London & South East Rail and Tube map.

Personally I think that time was when London Overground expanded to South London. The principle that according to the TfL map you can only get from Clapham to Wimbledon via West Brompton is a bit silly. And yes, I do know people who have done that.

 

[Cdd89]

I think the time has come for the tube map to show all services but in zones 1 and 2 only, and leave the rest for the London & South East Rail and Tube map.

What we really need based on this is a “tourist and business map”. This would include all of Zone 1, but anything outside Zone 1 would need a compelling case as to why it should be on the map. Airports would be an obvious inclusion. The extra space on this rather spartan map could be used to annotate with details of nearby attractions.

 

[py_megapixel]

Does anyone have a link to the new map? I don't live anywhere near a TfL station so I can't get one myself, and the PDF versions on the TfGM TfL* site are still showing the May version

* TfL, not TfGM! (I've just come from the GMCA bus franchising thread and so typed the wrong thing)

 

[Mojo]

I have linked to it in post #132 above.

 

[py_megapixel]

I have linked to it in post #132 above.

thanks very much

 

[Dstock7080]

Does anyone have a link to the new map? I don't live anywhere near a TfL station so I can't get one myself, and the PDF versions on the TfGM TfL* site are still showing the May version

The recent press and other releases say the new map temporarily showing Thameslink for 2021-22 will be available later in January.