Should Thameslink appear on the Tube map? (Now expected to appear in December on Tube map)

[matt_world2004]

This definition incorrectly excludes Thames Clippers.

Thames clippers isn't on the map or run or contracted by TfL

 

[MikeWh]

• If minimum frequency is the criteria, much of the Overground and TfL Rail doesn’t belong.

Upthread it was suggested that 4 trains per hour is the minimum frequency. Pretty much all LO and TfL Rail is at least that. Chesham isn't. Amersham isn't.

Thames clippers isn't on the map or run or contracted by TfL

But the piers are on the tube map.

 

[ijmad]

Upthread it was suggested that 4 trains per hour is the minimum frequency. Pretty much all LO and TfL Rail is at least that. Chesham isn't. Amersham isn't.

Bush Hill Park, Enfield Town, Southbury, Turkey Street, Theobalds Grove, Emerson Park, Roding Valley, Chigwell and Grange Hill all receive less than 4tph for some or all of the day. However I do have a fairly clear recollection that it was TfL's stated aim that all their services should be at least 4tph, although this may have changed under Khan. So these are exceptions, mostly for practical reasons like lack of stock or infrastructure or lack of paths (for LO).

But the piers are on the tube map.

True, although to me, this seems functionally to be more like a stylised interchange symbol than advertising actual services you can take. There are National Rail interchange symbols on the TfL tube map, after all.

 

[matt_world2004]

Upthread it was suggested that 4 trains per hour is the minimum frequency. Pretty much all LO and TfL Rail is at least that. Chesham isn't. Amersham isn't.

But the piers are on the tube map.

Looking at the tube map they are only marked if there is an available interchange with a tube station (Like national rail services) Kingston Pier isn't included for example. neither is cadagen Pier .The piers are also by and large run by London river services a subsidiary of TfL

 

[londonteacher]

If consistent fare scales are the criteria, the Trams don’t belong.

Although on the tube map these are labelled as London Tram Fare Zone and have a different background.

There would need to be a mention of different fares applying for Thameslink (perhaps just an asterisk directing to the information) to ensure it's clear.

You could argue for cases where National Rail and London Underground interchange such as between Waterloo and Richmond (SW), London Bridge and Woolwich (SE, TL) that these could also be included.

 

[Kilopylae]

It would be absurd and arbitrary to include Thameslink and not the Northern City Line and the many metro-style National Rail lines in south London, for instance, the Waterloo to Hampton Court line. We have the London Rail and Tube Map for all that. It's at least logical and consistent for the Tube map to be a 'TfL services map', even if it's obviously not what any of us would have designed ourselves.

All that said, given the power to decide it for myself, I'd have different maps based on service frequency, regardless of 'type of service'.

One map for all the highly frequent services: the deep level tube, the DLR, the Thameslink core, anything else I've missed.

Another for all the turn-up-and-go services, which I guess might be a criteria of maybe 4 tph plus in each direction; everything on the first map plus sub-surface Tube lines, Trams, London Overground, Thameslink outside the core, etc.

And then another for all that plus the less frequent suburban lines, like Waterloo to Hampton Court.

 

[Hadders]

One way to proceed might be to have two versions of the map:

One just showing the central area, e.g. zones 1 and 2
The other being the 'full' rail and tube map showing everything

The advantage of this is that the central area map would be less cluttered which would be of benefit to visitors, tourists etc.

 

[Mikey C]

It would be absurd and arbitrary to include Thameslink and not the Northern City Line and the many metro-style National Rail lines in south London, for instance, the Waterloo to Hampton Court line. We have the London Rail and Tube Map for all that. It's at least logical and consistent for the Tube map to be a 'TfL services map', even if it's obviously not what any of us would have designed ourselves.

The difference is that the other lines (especially the ones south of the river) are traditional National Rail lines which take you from the suburbs to a London terminus where you get off and continue on by tube (or whatever)

Thameslink is different in that it takes you across London, people can use it to get between central London stations or indeed from one terminus to another (e.g. STP to London Bridge) like an Underground Line.

The Northern City Line between Moorgate and Finsbury Park ought to be on the map too, indeed it used to be part of the Underground network and stayed on the map when under BR.

 

[Cdd89]

So what’s the rationale for not including the SE services from Charing X / Cannon St via London Bridge, both of which are more frequent than TL even in the central core? Just that they don’t subscribe to TfL Underground fares - but then that doesn’t stop Trams, TfL Rail to Heathrow and Emirates Air Line from appearing (of course the first two are included within caps, but then so are NR fare scale services).

It may be that there is no objective logical basis for the Map and it is just someone’s intuition as to which services are considered useful to casual users. But that presupposes that casual users are interested in transport network maps and while that may currently hold true it is decreasingly so. As public transport enthusiasts/professionals we are obviously highly interested in topological representions of infrastructure - so there’ll always be a need for a map that’s as complete as possible - but casual users wanting to get from A to B are most likely to fire up an app and let that work out the fastest route, which it’ll do better than by map reading since that often varies based on exact time of departure.

 

[Ianno87]

The difference is that the other lines (especially the ones south of the river) are traditional National Rail lines which take you from the suburbs to a London terminus where you get off and continue on by tube (or whatever)

Thameslink is different in that it takes you across London, people can use it to get between central London stations or indeed from one terminus to another (e.g. STP to London Bridge) like an Underground Line.

The Northern City Line between Moorgate and Finsbury Park ought to be on the map too, indeed it used to be part of the Underground network and stayed on the map when under BR.

One could argue, for example, that Wimbledon-Waterloo and Balham-Victoria operate metro frequencies, so it's odd to show tube services from these location but not National Rail.

 

[Kilopylae]

One could argue, for example, that Wimbledon-Waterloo and Balham-Victoria operate metro frequencies, so it's odd to show tube services from these location but not National Rail.

If we're going for the 'misleading' argument, it's certainly misleading to suggest that the fastest way from Wimbledon to central London is the District line via Putney.

 

[ijmad]

I'm sure I remember seeing a TfL 'high frequency rail services' map at some point, which had some of these useful services on without having the entire SE/Southern jungle of lines with services on that only run hourly or in the peaks. I may be misremembering and perhaps it was a fan-made map. But anyway, it seemed like it'd be the most useful map of all for the casual traveller taking an unplanned journey from A to B.

 

[Non Multi]

I'm sure I remember seeing a TfL 'high frequency rail services' map at some point, which had some of these useful services on without having the entire SE/Southern jungle of lines with services on that only run hourly or in the peaks. I may be misremembering and perhaps it was a fan-made map. But anyway, it seemed like it'd be the most useful map of all for the casual traveller taking an unplanned journey from A to B.

Found a March 2008 copy on Project Mapping:

http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/High-frequency-services-map.pdf

 

[matt_world2004]

Found a March 2008 copy on Project Mapping:

http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/High-frequency-services-map.pdf

Not very accurate , it shows Kensington olympia having a high frequency service on the district.

Also shows west Drayton having a high frequency service even though it's only served by two trains per hour

 

[infobleep]

If the map only included stations, from which fares for single journeys were priced by TfL or priced by another TOC but matched to TfL prices, how would that change the map?

 

[Mojo]

If the map only included stations, from which fares for single journeys were priced by TfL or priced by another TOC but matched to TfL prices, how would that change the map?

Depends on how you consider TfL Rail and Overground services on the lines to/from Liverpool Street, because many journeys on these services are charged at a hybrid fare rate

 

[matt_world2004]

Some London Overground lines and TfL rail lines do not accept tube paper tickets either even if the lay as you go rate is the same as the tube. I've seen people get their details taken because they brought a paddington LUL ticket instead of a TfL rail one.

 

[Ianno87]

Not very accurate , it shows Kensington olympia having a high frequency service on the district.

Kenny O still got a regular service back in 2008.

 

[Mojo]

Kenny O still got a regular service back in 2008.

IIRC it was every 20 Min during the day, and the box at the bottom says 4tph.

 

[infobleep]

Some London Overground lines and TfL rail lines do not accept tube paper tickets either even if the lay as you go rate is the same as the tube. I've seen people get their details taken because they brought a paddington LUL ticket instead of a TfL rail one.

That reminds me of a Victorian guide book I owme where they warm readers that tickets to mutiple stations maybe the same price but if you go beyond the station on your ticket, even if the same price, you will get in trouble. I forget precisely what would happen and nor can I remember which guide book it is in right now but its not a new issue.

I was thinking in terms of single oyster fare rather than paper fare when referring to the tube map.

 

[ashkeba]

- but casual users wanting to get from A to B are most likely to fire up an app and let that work out the fastest route, which it’ll do better than by map reading since that often varies based on exact time of departure.

Surely no casual users install a whole app just to plan a journey? Following the signs to estimate what looks roughly right on the map seems much more likely.

 

[matt_world2004]

That reminds me of a Victorian guide book I owme where they warm readers that tickets to mutiple stations maybe the same price but if you go beyond the station on your ticket, even if the same price, you will get in trouble. I forget precisely what would happen and nor can I remember which guide book it is in right now but its not a new issue.

I was thinking in terms of single oyster fare rather than paper fare when referring to the tube map.

Paper tickets are still zonal fares at their destination hence the confusion. A paddington to zone 3 underground ticket is not valid on the TfL rail to Ealing Broadway. But it's what the London underground ticket machine will sell you if you inputted Ealing Broadway as a destination

 

[Ianno87]

IIRC it was every 20 Min during the day, and the box at the bottom says 4tph.

Depends whether Overground services are included.

 

[Domh245]

Surely no casual users install a whole app just to plan a journey? Following the signs to estimate what looks roughly right on the map seems much more likely.

They probably won't go around installing a new app, but when Maps comes installed as standard on near enough every phone, and tfl's journey planner is entirely online, I don't think many people will be without any easily accessible journey planner. It's certainly quicker and easier to look at than a map

 

[matt_world2004]

Depends whether Overground services are included.

Overground shown as low frequency on the map to Kensington Olympia while the district was shown as high frequency

 

[Dstock7080]

District Olympia service was every 15min until later in 2008, when reduced to 20min

 

[Cdd89]

Another potential criteria that just occurred to be would be whether doors open automatically on the service and on that part of the network.

 

[matt_world2004]

District Olympia service was every 15min until later in 2008, when reduced to 20min

Pretty amazing that such a reduction in frequency for non event days was seen as politically acceptable.

 

[ijmad]

Another potential criteria that just occurred to be would be whether doors open automatically on the service and on that part of the network.

They'll have to get rid of London Overground and the trams!

 

[cactustwirly]

Not very accurate , it shows Kensington olympia having a high frequency service on the district.

Also shows west Drayton having a high frequency service even though it's only served by two trains per hour

West Drayton has always been served by 4tph (Mon - Sat) before covid