Should the Chiltern Mainline be upgraded?

[EcsWhyZee]

Now that the Great Western Mainline, Midland Mainline and even the Great Eastern Mainline are in a much better state than a few years ago with many more electric trains and myriad infrastructure improvements, does the forum feel that the Chiltern Mainline has picked up the "unfairly treated mainline" title?

Diesel trains even on suburban services is a state of play now unheard of on the other mainlines (even longer distance commuting once Corby is up and running as an electrified branch in passenger service). The trains are totally mismatched, I guess not helped by the fact even the subclasses of the class 168s don't look alike) and still include MK3 carriages (albeit it nicely done up). Yes, Evergreen and Evergreen 2 resulted in some improvements and even a new route to Oxford, but this feels like East West Railway rather than really being for Chiltern to me.

What does everyone else think?

 

[Iskra]

No, I still think that title belongs to the MML with it's tatty mixture of cast off rolling stock, increasingly tatty 222's and incomplete electrification.

 

[3141]

Depending on the definition of "mainline" (which is probably as uncertain as "intercity"), I think there are probably many travellers in other parts of England who'd be quite pleased to have the sort of service that Chiltern has.

 

[D365]

No, I still think that title belongs to the MML with it's tatty mixture of cast off rolling stock, increasingly tatty 222's and incomplete electrification.

The rolling stock that is soon to be replaced by Class 170, 360 and 810 fleets? Though I very much agree when it comes to incomplete electrification.

 

[The Planner]

Technically Bicester Oxford was branded Evergreen 3. Anything north of Aynho can't really be called Chiltern led in my view. Banbury resignalling was a life expiry job, as was Fenny Compton and Leamington to Tyseley.

 

[Iskra]

The rolling stock that is soon to be replaced by Class 170, 360 and 810 fleets? Though I very much agree when it comes to incomplete electrification.

Still 3 years away for 810's and in the current climate there is no guarantee they won't get cut.

I agree with the poster that questioned Chiltern's Intercity status.

 

[Deepgreen]

I wonder what members with red hair will make of this thread's title (or even those who are step-children!).

 

[Bletchleyite]

What does everyone else think?

It's not a mainline, it's a glorified suburban commuter service. It does, however, need to be electrified at 25kV throughout and to gain a fleet of 110mph EMUs of some kind, be they Siemens or Bombardier, as all UK commuter lines that aren't already third rail should.

The rolling stock that is soon to be replaced by Class 170, 360 and 810 fleets? Though I very much agree when it comes to incomplete electrification.

That's a wider issue, of course. The only lines that shouldn't be electrified in the near future are tiny branch lines (which are suitable for battery vehicles) and very rural stuff like the Far North (which will probably end up with hydrogen). That we have diesel mainlines or commuter service (wherever you draw the line between them) in 2020 is laughable on the world stage.

 

[py_megapixel]

Every now and again there's a thread about Chiltern electrification. That's a good idea, but in my opinion there are other, more important priorities.

Chiltern has a fleet of relatively modern DMUs and, as you say, nicely done-up carriages with modern locomotives. There's nothing hugely wrong with it.

On the other hand, if you were to electrify some other bits of the country - for example, the northern Midland Mainline, the gaps in GWR, or even some more of Northern's routes, you'd be replacing much older and less comfortable rolling stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the other hand, if you were to electrify some other bits of the country - for example, the northern Midland Mainline, the gaps in GWR, or even some more
of Northern's routes, you'd be replacing much older and less comfortable rolling stock.

To be fair, electrifying Chiltern would release all those modern DMUs which would be ideal for Northern's express work, allowing another cascade (including 195s to work branch lines and stopping services, to which their acceleration and standbacks suit them well).

The answer of course really is that all of those things need electrifying, the question should only be in which order they are done.

 

[6Gman]

To be fair, electrifying Chiltern would release all those modern DMUs which would be ideal for Northern's express work, allowing another cascade (including 195s to work branch lines and stopping services, to which their acceleration and standbacks suit them well).

The answer of course really is that all of those things need electrifying, the question should only be in which order they are done.

Aren't some of the Chiltern units a bit . . . wide . . . for other areas?

 

[Darandio]

I wonder what members with red hair will make of this thread's title (or even those who are step-children!).

Hopefully they see it as an old saying and see it's intention in the context of the thread question. It's the ones who would get offended on their behalf that I worry about.

 

[pdeaves]

The Chiltern line was modernised on the eve of privatisation. Since then other routes have seen their works, which should cycle round until it becomes the Chiltern route's turn again. I don't think the Chiltern route is 'unfairly treated' or forgotten or anything, I just think it needs to wait its turn for the next upgrade.

 

[bramling]

Now that the Great Western Mainline, Midland Mainline and even the Great Eastern Mainline are in a much better state than a few years ago with many more electric trains and myriad infrastructure improvements, does the forum feel that the Chiltern Mainline has picked up the "unfairly treated mainline" title?

Diesel trains even on suburban services is a state of play now unheard of on the other mainlines (even longer distance commuting once Corby is up and running as an electrified branch in passenger service). The trains are totally mismatched, I guess not helped by the fact even the subclasses of the class 168s don't look alike) and still include MK3 carriages (albeit it nicely done up). Yes, Evergreen and Evergreen 2 resulted in some improvements and even a new route to Oxford, but this feels like East West Railway rather than really being for Chiltern to me.

What does everyone else think?

Not really. Chiltern has had a *lot* of infrastructure investment over the years, although how much benefit some of the traditional Home Counties commuters have really derived from that is open to debate, as the TOC had tended to go for the richer pickings further out. But even taking this into consideration it's hard, IMO, to make a convincing case that Chiltern passengers haven't had a fair share of the pie over the last 25 years. I do think Chiltern as TOC is a bit over-rated though - 2-car DMUs on Birmingham runs in the mid-afternoon out of Marylebone is completely inadequate by any standard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aren't some of the Chiltern units a bit . . . wide . . . for other areas?

The 165s might be, but there are a lot of 168s which have the same body as 170s. I believe they are only numbered 168 because they are compatible with other Turbo type units rather than with 15x.

I do think Chiltern as TOC is a bit over-rated though - 2-car DMUs on Birmingham runs in the mid-afternoon out of Marylebone is completely inadequate by any standard.

Agreed. At least if they got a fleet of say 5x24m Aventras they would have to pack that in by default! It's almost like 2-car DMUs should be banned because avaricious TOCs get tempted to diagram them alone to save 50p

In my observation they are not as good under Arriva as when they were independent. Which is a not uncommon thing to occur when Arriva get their grubby mitts on, well, anything really.

 

[StephenHunter]

Not really. Chiltern has had a *lot* of infrastructure investment over the years, although how much benefit some of the traditional Home Counties commuters have really derived from that is open to debate, as the TOC had tended to go for the richer pickings further out. But even taking this into consideration it's hard, IMO, to make a convincing case that Chiltern passengers haven't had a fair share of the pie over the last 25 years. I do think Chiltern as TOC is a bit over-rated though - 2-car DMUs on Birmingham runs in the mid-afternoon out of Marylebone is completely inadequate by any standard.

The Class 115s that operated on the line in BR days were a step above most of the contemporary commuter DMUs in passenger accommodation.

 

[raetiamann]

The rolling stock that is soon to be replaced by Class 170, 360 and 810 fleets? Though I very much agree when it comes to incomplete electrification.

This is cascaded 170s that a) were taken off the MML over a decade ago and b) most 'Southerners' on here won't let be transfered until their situation is resolved.

810s that will still pollute the Midlands north of Kettering and the 360s to Corby is very much a commuter railway rather than the MML proper. We've been very badly let down by the DfT and government.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is cascaded 170s that a) were taken off the MML over a decade ago and b) most 'Southerners' on here won't let be transfered until their situation is resolved.

810s that will still pollute the Midlands north of Kettering and the 360s to Corby is very much a commuter railway rather than the MML proper. We've been very badly let down by the DfT and government.

The 170s are a bit of a side argument, to be honest, because they will run on local routes that are very low down the queue for the wires, not the MML itself for any considerable distance.

Perhaps you could agree a swap with Northern for 195s, but personally I'd rather have 170s.

 

[JonathanH]

It's not a mainline, it's a glorified suburban commuter service. It does, however, need to be electrified at 25kV throughout and to gain a fleet of 110mph EMUs of some kind, be they Siemens or Bombardier, as all UK commuter lines that aren't already third rail should.

It probably doesn't need anything of the sort - 110mph units on a 100mph route would be a bit of a waste, especially since you note it is a glorified suburban route.

If the rumours about the DfT removing 'TOC-only' and route specific fares come to fruition, very few people will use the Chiltern route to get from London to Birmingham and it can concentrate on the intermediate journeys.

 

[birchesgreen]

If the rumours about the DfT removing 'TOC-only' and route specific fares come to fruition, very few people will use the Chiltern route to get from London to Birmingham and it can concentrate on the intermediate journeys.

Why is that then? I use the Chiltern route exclusively, avoiding the massive toilet that is London Euston is a big factor behind that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It probably doesn't need anything of the sort - 110mph units on a 100mph route would be a bit of a waste, especially since you note it is a glorified suburban route.

110mph units are basic EMUs, pretty much the default speed now for new kit. It's 125+ where you need a pointy nose etc.

If the rumours about the DfT removing 'TOC-only' and route specific fares come to fruition, very few people will use the Chiltern route to get from London to Birmingham and it can concentrate on the intermediate journeys.

There is that.

Why is that then? I use the Chiltern route exclusively, avoiding the massive toilet that is London Euston is a big factor behind that.

Euston is not a "massive toilet" (and Marylebone's toilets are just as unpleasant as Euston's), though I can understand why you like Marylebone itself, "the gentleman's London terminus". But that's an enthusiast's thing; if the fare is the same whatever way you go then the vast majority of people just want the fastest route, which for now is Avanti but will be HS2.

 

[birchesgreen]

Well if you say so but the time difference isn't that big. If the Avanti services become overcrowded (this is assuming post-covid of course) then some people would go back to Chiltern anyway. I very much doubt MYB bound trains out of BMO will become empty.

 

[DB]

Well if you say so but the time difference isn't that big. If the Avanti services become overcrowded (this is assuming post-covid of course) then some people would go back to Chiltern anyway. I very much doubt MYB bound trains out of BMO will become empty.

There's also the rolling stock, and how busy the services are. Not everyone likes Pendolinos!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well if you say so but the time difference isn't that big. If the Avanti services become overcrowded (this is assuming post-covid of course) then some people would go back to Chiltern anyway. I very much doubt MYB bound trains out of BMO will become empty.

The Avanti services weren't overcrowded before COVID so are unlikely to be so after it. 3 11-car Pendolinos an hour are a lot of train.

There's also the rolling stock, and how busy the services are. Not everyone likes Pendolinos!

Most non-enthusiasts don't care what type of train it is, they just want the fastest or cheapest one. If the latter criterion disappears, then "fastest" is the only thing they will care about.

 

[DB]

Most non-enthusiasts don't care what type of train it is, they just want the fastest or cheapest one. If the latter criterion disappears, then "fastest" is the only thing they will care about.

Certainly true in many cases, but not all and there are ordinary travellers who do have preferences for such things.

 

[bramling]

This is cascaded 170s that a) were taken off the MML over a decade ago and b) most 'Southerners' on here won't let be transfered until their situation is resolved.

810s that will still pollute the Midlands north of Kettering and the 360s to Corby is very much a commuter railway rather than the MML proper. We've been very badly let down by the DfT and government.

You mean the 170s which were replaced by a fleet of brand new 222s?

Not saying the MML has had the best deal, it hasn’t (especially with the discontinued electrification), but the 170s isn’t really an example of that.

Likewise the rural users have good cause to moan about getting the rough end of the CT split deal, but that’s not relevant to the London service.

As for the GTR 171s, not sure what you propose. EMR’s rural services currently have rolling stock, GTR’s wouldn’t if the 171s were taken away now. Even if a straight swap was done for EMR’s current rural fleet there’s numerous reasons why that just wouldn’t be viable in practice, nor be a worthwhile use of resources.

 

[DB]

As for the GTR 171s, not sure what you propose. EMR’s rural services currently have rolling stock, GTR’s wouldn’t if the 171s were taken away now. Even if a straight swap was done for EMR’s current rural fleet there’s numerous reasons why that just wouldn’t be viable in practice, nor be a worthwhile use of resources.

And assuming EMR can keep the 158s, it's not a major issue - those are decent enough units although if kept longer than intended could probably do with a basic refurbishment (new seat covers, etc).

 

[Metal_gee_man]

OK, well agree to disagree about the timeframe of any upgrade and when and if they deserve it.

I will question what the line speed is currently?

Obviously the current rolling stock is limited to a maximum 100mph, should 110mph or 125mph diesels be procured but only if they do the upgrades to the signalling?

The track is on the whole 2 track and 85% straight, is it only signalling reducing the line speed or should it be 4 tracked in places to allow overtaking accommodating the commuter and intercity services to help increase line speed?

And will they even bother with it, HS2 and the WCML will take 90% of the intercity strain to brum and Chiltern could be even more focused on providing a commuter high frequency railway after HS2 is complete potentially only running 1tph all the way through to Brum and vicsa versa with London with most services only making it to Banbury or Aylesbury from London and many services only making it south to Leamington or Warwick

 

[The Planner]

Again, the signalling isnt that old so an upgrade so soon isn't likely to happen. It will also be more than signalling that is required to be upgraded. There are other bits that need sorting first such as Knightcote embankment near Fenny Compton before you even start sketching on the fag packet for the rest.

 

[Tallguy]

Chiltern is my local service (I live at Princes Risborough). The route has had a lot of upgrade between London and Banbury in recent times, the trains are OK if a bit grubby inside, the pre Covid service levels were good. The only problem was the price of the tickets into London.....

And if you want to use the toilet at Marylebone I suggest using those in the posh hotel just outside the station which are very nice and free.....