Should the class 60 be fully restored to frontline service?

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by aaronoxford77, 22 May 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. aaronoxford77

    aaronoxford77 Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    22 May 2015
    Do the "Tugs" have a place on today's railways? I think they should be fully reinstated. Massively powerful and given the right treatment could be around for years to come.
     
  2. RichmondCommu

    RichmondCommu Established Member

    Messages:
    6,585
    Joined:
    23 Feb 2010
    Location:
    Richmond, London
    How would you find work for all of them? If I recall correctly Brush built 100 class 60's and yet I don't suppose that any more than 50% are in use at the moment. The reality is the only growth area of freight is Intermodal and I would have thought that class 66's are far more suited to that kind of traffic.
     
  3. D365

    D365 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,192
    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    Should be restored, yes, it's a right shame to see a decent and useful locomotive class wasting away.
    Will be restored; I'm not sure they will find enough work/demand.
     
  4. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

    Messages:
    6,649
    Joined:
    18 Dec 2012
    Location:
    Another planet...
    They have had something of a revival in the last 18-24 months, I imagine it's possible that a few more could be revived. But all 100? Not a chance, sadly*.

    *=unless the mythological 75mph upgrade has legs! ;)
     
  5. aaronoxford77

    aaronoxford77 Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    22 May 2015
    Having spoken to a DB driver, he seems to think that the 1st scrappings could well start this year. It is a shame but many have been o.o.u for years now. The 66's are fine but some of the traffic that they are expected to haul are simply beyond their abilities. A point that was witnessed last year when a 66 was on the iron ore train and it went bang. There is plenty of work for them, if not all 100 more should be reactivated.
     
  6. CosherB

    CosherB Established Member

    Messages:
    1,679
    Joined:
    5 Jun 2012
    Location:
    Cheshire
    If DBS didn't own 90 of them (with Colas fortunately getting their dabs on 10) then I'm sure more would be in front line service. I daresay that DBS aren't going to offer them willy-nilly to the likes of Freightliner, GBRf and DRS ......
     
  7. aaronoxford77

    aaronoxford77 Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    22 May 2015
    It just seems so wrong that lines of them are rotting away while companies are short of traction.
     
  8. shedman

    shedman Member

    Messages:
    365
    Joined:
    14 Feb 2011
    Do you know the cost to repair these?
     
  9. CosherB

    CosherB Established Member

    Messages:
    1,679
    Joined:
    5 Jun 2012
    Location:
    Cheshire
    About £450k each .....
     
  10. Strathclyder

    Strathclyder Established Member

    Messages:
    1,094
    Joined:
    12 Jun 2013
    Location:
    Clydebank, West Dunbartonshire
    Taking an uneducated guess here, but it would be above £350k or more each, at least.
    Plus, I don't think there would there be enough work/demand to justify bringing them all back....

    As much as I'd like to see all of the 'Tugs' operational again, I honestly can't see it happening, sadly....

    E: CosherB beat me to it.....
     
    Last edited: 23 May 2015
  11. 455driver

    455driver Veteran Member

    Messages:
    11,332
    Joined:
    10 May 2010
    The ones that have been done up didn't have extra holes in the side of the engine though so that is another cost to be added on with quite a few of them.
     
  12. aaronoxford77

    aaronoxford77 Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    22 May 2015
    Its expensive but not nearly as expensive as letting millions of pounds rot when others could use them.
     
  13. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    17,191
    Joined:
    16 Nov 2009
    Location:
    Redcar
    Doesn't cost their owner, DBS, anything to let them rot.
     
  14. SpacePhoenix

    SpacePhoenix Established Member

    Messages:
    5,399
    Joined:
    18 Mar 2014
    Is there any foreign FOC who could make use of some?
     
  15. 66Yorks

    66Yorks Member

    Messages:
    161
    Joined:
    17 Apr 2015
    Location:
    England
    I agree it does seem wasteful that a decent loco is being left to ruin. I see them on steelwork trains and that's about it. Otherwise it's 66's where I live.
     
  16. al.currie93

    al.currie93 Member

    Messages:
    379
    Joined:
    27 Jun 2013
    You're right there, in fact I think it's even less in service (around 25, possibly a few more). The 66s, while people may dislike them, can haul the majority of freight trains to the majority of places without incident. The 60s only better them for super-heavy trains, which there aren't that many of these days. However, as has been highlighted, the 66s are often used on trains more suited to 60s...

    I agree with this, it's wrong to see them rotting away, but as you and RichmondCommu have said, there probably wouldn't be enough work for them, definitely not all of them! Unless there's growth in super heavy freight train requirements, then it's a case of seeing the 60s rotting, or or using them in place of the more suitable 66s and seeing them rotting instead, sadly.
     
  17. D365

    D365 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,192
    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    I know what you're thinking really ;) I do agree that it's a shame to see any useful locomotive idling away because of over-provision, but seeing as the main victims have been the fleets inherited from BR...

    Also this vast quantity means the 66s can double-head where a 60 or an electric locomotive might have been more economical. As I understand it this has been influenced by internal politics; the conditions on the lease for the GM imports and the minimal spending on upkeep of the ex-BR fleet.
     
  18. NSEFAN

    NSEFAN Established Member

    Messages:
    2,831
    Joined:
    17 Jun 2007
    Location:
    Southampton
    Welcome to accounting. Sometimes things seem like a waste until you look at the costing, and given DBS is a business you can be pretty sure that they've not let the class 60s rot just for the lulz. The class 60s have their place but there is in general a push to move away from slow freight because of the capacity it takes up. For example, Freightliner have purchased class 70s because they are 75mph locomotives with a higher tractive effort than class 60s. Why reduce capacity with an older slower locomotive when you can have a faster, more powerful and newer design instead?

    If it turns out a fleet of trains is no longer required and cannot be repurposed, regardless of their condition, then the best option is to dispose of them (provided they are not needed later for new traffic flows). If the locomotives are relatively modern and/or in good condition they can be sold to other operators (see class 60s with Colas or class 87s in Bulgaria). Otherwise, you're perhaps better cutting your losses and selling them to make razor blades and baked bean cans!
     
    Last edited: 24 May 2015
  19. DownSouth

    DownSouth Established Member

    Messages:
    1,545
    Joined:
    10 Dec 2011
    Not when there is such a plentiful supply (including spare parts) of GE Dash 8 and EMD JT26 or JT42 locos of roughly the same vintage.

    There are even a number of companies around the world which buy up US domestic locos being disposed of by the Class I Railroads (Union Pacific, CSX etc) just for the powertrain, which they then reuse on new-build frames more suitable for places where the loading gauge is tighter than US standard.


    Were I running a small freight company somewhere and in need of something like ten locomotives, buying Class 60 locos would be nowhere near as good a deal as, for example, the DL Class locos that Pacific National (Australian mainline intermodal and bulk freight operator) is rumoured to be disposing of in the next couple of years. While the DL Class is a very small fleet in its own right (only 15 built, two wrecked in crashes) it can be considered to be part of a much larger fleet than the Class 60 as it uses the EMD JT42 powertrain which was built in thousands (the Class 66 is one of many locos which are a JT42 under the body) and is still supported by Progress Rail today. I might even consider buying all 13 of the remaining DL Class to get better terms from Pacific National for taking the whole class and to get three locos I can gradually dismantle for spares.
     
  20. SpacePhoenix

    SpacePhoenix Established Member

    Messages:
    5,399
    Joined:
    18 Mar 2014
    Could the 60s realistically be rebuilt for either passenger work or for faster freight working?

    Could we see any examples enter preservation at all (even if its only 60001 - if it still exists)?

    Would they be any good for working on engineer's trains - maybe on the construction of HS2 - if that goes ahead and enough of them survive that long?
     
  21. Boothby97

    Boothby97 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,671
    Joined:
    24 Apr 2011
    60001 is alive and well, its actually operational
     
  22. CosherB

    CosherB Established Member

    Messages:
    1,679
    Joined:
    5 Jun 2012
    Location:
    Cheshire
    1. No.

    2. I'd have thought 60100 would be more deserving of preservation as the last UK built diesel loco.

    3. Maybe, but all ifs, buts and maybes.
     
  23. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

    Messages:
    15,779
    Joined:
    12 Oct 2010
    Location:
    Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
    to what purpose? Is there work for them?

    I also think you have little grasp of economics! :roll:
     
  24. Jamesb1974

    Jamesb1974 Member

    Messages:
    596
    Joined:
    20 Mar 2006
    Deleted
     
    Last edited: 8 Aug 2016
  25. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

    Messages:
    7,794
    Joined:
    15 Apr 2008
    I was under the impression that 60s are good for getting going with heavy loads, but are a bit lacking getting up to speed, which is why then end up on the tank trains. On a load of around 2000 tonnes, what would be better at getting up to 60mph and staying there? the 66 or 60?
     
  26. richieb1971

    richieb1971 Member

    Messages:
    819
    Joined:
    28 Jan 2013
    I read from a google link that all the 60 fleet could be put back into service if the demand was there for it. Apparently a lot of the fleet have weathered better than expected.

    It is sad that DBS have a hold on them. That leasing company in Leicester should be allowed to do them up to lease them out when required.
     
  27. Jamesb1974

    Jamesb1974 Member

    Messages:
    596
    Joined:
    20 Mar 2006
    Deleted
     
    Last edited: 8 Aug 2016
  28. richieb1971

    richieb1971 Member

    Messages:
    819
    Joined:
    28 Jan 2013
    I do not know the ins and outs of how DBS procured the 60's and what the contract actually entailed. But if a company procured these loco's on the basis of a bigger deal it should have been written in the small print that any loco laying dormant for a period of time should be sold of.

    In the car market if you have a working car sitting idle you move it on whilst it has value. I don't know of any assets that are left to painfully deteriorate to nothingness. This is engineering cruelty at its finest.
     
  29. Domh245

    Domh245 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,934
    Joined:
    6 Apr 2013
    Location:
    Nottingham
    DBS inherited them from EWS, who inherited them from their purchasing of the pre-privatisation railfreight companies. They had been procured by BR for hauling heavy freight at 60mph, but EWS obtained lots of 66s as well, and they could start to run down the other classes of locos, eg 58s, 47s, 37s, etc. Being the outright owners of the 60s means that if they sit rusting away in sidings, it has no effect on DBS as they aren't short of locos, and aren't losing money through maintenance. If they sold them on, it would be to a competitor, which obviously isn't in their business interest.
     
  30. LWB

    LWB Member

    Messages:
    149
    Joined:
    31 Dec 2009
    Are we not facing a problematic time due to our unique loading gauge and ever tightening emission directives from Europe? Where will our next freight class come from? Perhaps rebuilding offers a way to circumvent eco considerations.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page