Should the District line share the Hammersmith to Acton express lines?

Discussion in 'London Underground' started by NorthKent1989, 28 May 2017.

  1. NorthKent1989

    NorthKent1989 Member

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    The District line for me isn't much different to the Metropolitan line, they're both essentially longer distance suburban lines, yet while the Met line, skips stations served by the Jubilee line (some cases even Amersham trains skip all stations between Harrow & Moor Park)

    Yet the District line is overtaken by the Piccadilly line which is a strange reversal of situations with the Met and Jubilee lines.

    Should and could the District line be able to skip the stations between Acton & Hammersmith in peak times?
     
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  3. bluegoblin7

    bluegoblin7 Member

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    No. The west end of the District already gets a raw deal, with trains having to be split between the Wimbledon, Richmond and Ealing Broadway branches. The Wimbledon branch is the most important to retain a service during disruption, which means that trains calling at the local stations between Hammersmith and Acton can be few and far between - although, from time to time, the Piccadilly will help out by stopping additionally on the fasts, or itself diverting down the local.

    If you divert the District down the fast, what trains do you then use to stop at the local stations? Any trains that go to Richmond *must* use the local, leaving a ten minute service. Is that really acceptable along that stretch of line? Not really.

    Journey times on that stretch of the District really aren't comparable to the top end of the Met, and nor is the general operation. The Piccadilly is the express service, in particular to make journey times to Heathrow quicker, and any passengers who really want to save a couple of minutes can use the cross-platform interchanges at Hammersmith and Acton Town. But, in reality, by the time you've faffed around you might as well have stayed on board. The same is true for everyone who faffs onto a fast Met line train, for the stopper to be only a couple of minutes behind.
     
  4. MatthewRead

    MatthewRead On Moderation

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    It has happened before the last time I went down the fast on a District line train it was in January 2012, unfortunately I didn't have a camera with me:( I wanted the D stock farewell tour to use the fast line but alas it didn't:cry:
     
  5. bluegoblin7

    bluegoblin7 Member

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    Yes. From time to time a District will be diverted down the fast. This can be for any number of reasons, and one train won't cause any major headaches - most commonly it's to work around a failure or an additional move.
     
  6. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I think you might have made a mistake.

    Are you sure journeys from Richmond and Ealing Broadway to central London are over longer distances than from South Harrow or Heathrow to central London?

    You may want to check a map and/or a timetable/journey planner.
     
  7. class387

    class387 Established Member

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    Would it work to have on the slows:

    District Line from Richmond
    Piccadilly Line from Uxbridge

    And then on the fasts:

    District Line from Ealing Broadway
    Piccadilly Line from Heathrow

    This way the passengers on the local stations would get a choice between Piccadilly and District Lines, without inconveniencing Heathrow passengers.
     
  8. MatthewRead

    MatthewRead On Moderation

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    Good point but I think Chiswick Park should be the Piccadilly line's next calling point as it is only served by the Ealing Broadway services and the 2 railway bridges make such a racket whenever a Piccadilly line train goes over at speed I know it's a listed building but couldn't they put narrow island platforms similar to those at Barons Court.
     
  9. class387

    class387 Established Member

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    Good point about Chiswick Park. Perhaps the District Line fasts should be fast only from Turnham Green to Hammersmith?
     
    Last edited: 29 May 2017
  10. MatthewRead

    MatthewRead On Moderation

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    Do you mean fast from Turnham Green to Hammersmith?
     
  11. Mutant Lemming

    Mutant Lemming Established Member

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    The obvious issue with the DR running on the fast and PICC on the local comes between Hammersmith and Barons Court where they would have to cross each others metals.

    Even if the DR had been run out to Heathrow (more suitable for volume of passengers and luggage) it would still most likely have run all stations.
     
  12. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    It's proving difficult enough to achieve a stop for the Piccs at Turnham Green, still some years off iirc, so don't complicate things. Just think how lucky you are not to have to rely on Southern!
     
  13. Dr_Intoxicated

    Dr_Intoxicated Member

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    When I was a lad the District line did run out to Hounslow West
     
  14. Mutant Lemming

    Mutant Lemming Established Member

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    It would have been better had it been extended to Heathrow but extending the Picc provided the cheap option at the time.
     
  15. NorthKent1989

    NorthKent1989 Member

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    Good idea perhaps the Richmond service could run fast from TG to Hammersmith
    I think the DR used to run express trains alternating between Richmond or EB
    An express alternative east of Whitechapel would be pointless since the
    LTS line effectively serves as an Express DR service.

    Yes in hindsight it would've been much better to have extended to DR to Heathrow since there is virtually no luggage space on the Piccadilly line, even when the new deep tube stock finally does come into service (which is still ten years from now :-/) I doubt there would be enough space.

    The D stock seemed perfect for luggage space, the S stock also has luggage room,
     
    Last edited: 29 May 2017
  16. tranzitjim

    tranzitjim Member

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    How hard would it be to replace the Heathrow line with SubSurface District line trains?

    Can the tunnels at the airport handle the larger S-stock trains?
     
  17. Dstock7080

    Dstock7080 Established Member

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    Unfortunately not.
    The cut & cover tunnels from Hounslow West-Hatton Cross and the bored tube tunnels from Hatton Cross to Heathrow 2,3 (direct and via T4) prevents surface Stock from operating.
    (there is now another restriction at Hounslow East which prevents surface Stock from operating West of Northfields)

    The late J. Graeme Bruce said one of his greatest regrets, while Chief Operations Officer, was not giving authorisation for the extra funding to allow the Heathrow link to accommodate surface Stock trains when built.
     
  18. LU_timetabler

    LU_timetabler Member

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    The fix that is going to happen eventually is to transfer Ealing B'way to Picc. District will thus be able to serve Richmond at an increased frequency. Not sure what the plan is for Chiswick Park, either Picc's will somehow have to call there, or the station will need to be relocated to be on the Richmond branch.
     
  19. Antman

    Antman Established Member

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    No, too many conflicting movements apart from anything else. I'd say things are fine as they are now.
     
  20. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    Interesting - I can see that the Heathrow branch may well not justify the same level of service post-Crossrail, so some could be diverted to Ealing Broadway, but would Rayners Lane/Uxbridge suffer cuts too? Maybe fewer Underground services to/from Ealing Broadway post-Crossrail, although I'd have thought the Central Line would be more susceptible there?
     
  21. Dr_Intoxicated

    Dr_Intoxicated Member

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    Even after crossrail is open there is sufficient commuter travel from Hounslow to justify keeping the level of service at present levels. Looking at loadings between Heathrow and Hatton cross with Hounslow West and Hammersmith reveals that airport traffic is a relatively minor component.
     
  22. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Indeed, to reduce the service to any less than every 5 min I feel would be unacceptable to customers oven the places served by the Heathrow branch.
     
  23. Mag_seven

    Mag_seven Established Member

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    I think it works fine as is! Indeed given the propensity for Westbound Picc services to have to queue to get into Acton Town means you can often beat a Picc service to Acton Town by boarding a District Ealing service at Hammersmith!
     
  24. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    From their 'consultation' plans for bus services in West London post-Crossrail it does appear that TfL wish to entice some who currently use the Piccadiily Line up to Crossrail stations (e.g. from Osterley). I'm not saying they're right to think it's going to happen though!
     
  25. TFN

    TFN Member

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    I regularly commute to South Ealing and I noticed that from Hammersmith to Acton Town, when both the Picc and Distrct leave Hammersmith the same time, the District arrives at most 30 seconds after the Picc at Acton Town. Simply infuriating to wait just before Acton Town on the picc and see the District pass us especially when I'm late for a lecture!
     
  26. LU_timetabler

    LU_timetabler Member

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    That would indicate that the Picc is not following the timetable, there is very little delay put into the Acton Town approach in the WTT.

    Also replying to other comments:
    Richmond branch is ONLY accessible from the local lines.
    Crossing over both the services would make timetabling the crossing back at Hammersmith a nightmare and muck up service recovery following disruption on either or both lines. That would mean the disruption would spread.
    Isn't it really that difficult to change trains at Barons Court or Hammersmith or Acton Town, it's across the platform.
    When New Tube for London finally arrives Ealing Broadway will become Picc anyway.
     
  27. MatthewRead

    MatthewRead On Moderation

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    Seriously I didn't know the Piccadilly line was going to be re-routed to Ealing Broadway:o
     
  28. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Ideally Subsurface and Tube trains on the Undeground wouldn't share tracks at all, as that would allow the track to be adjusted to provide a step-free platform interface at ever station
     
  29. Dstock7080

    Dstock7080 Established Member

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    https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/policy/mayors-transport-strategy/user_uploads/pub16_001_mts_online-2.pdf

    pg.77:
     
  30. Antman

    Antman Established Member

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    That's not the purpose of the proposed 112 extension, nobody is going to get a bus from Osterley to Ealing Broadway to get Crossrail when they've got a tube station on their doorstep.
     
  31. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    If the Picc goes to Ealing Broadway it suggests to me that one or other (or both) of the existing branches will receive a worse service, at times anyway, UNLESS the signalling upgrade is able to provide a significant improvement in tph east of Acton Town: perhaps it is?
     

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