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Should the Ellesmere Port line have been electrified?

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Meerkat

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I think it would need a big scheme - ie electrification as part of really pushing the redevelopment of Stanlow as a business/research/office park and maybe some more housing in Elton. Would need decent connections into Liverpool and Manchester trains at Helsby though.
 
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frodshamfella

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What usage would say an hourly Merseyrail service get? Stanlow and Thornton I guess not much, but Elton seems a reasonably sized village, and there's Helsby itself?

Id have thought a service such as that to Elton would be received quite well, there is quite a bit of house indeed more has been recently there is also industry and a proximity to the M56 for park and ride. Ideally id have though terminate the Merseyrail Ellesmere Port service at Helsby where you can connect onwards. You wouldnt need the sporadic Northern service then.
 

A0wen

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What usage would say an hourly Merseyrail service get? Stanlow and Thornton I guess not much, but Elton seems a reasonably sized village, and there's Helsby itself?

No idea - but I was responding to the point about wanting to electrify the line - why it hasn't been done and why bi-modes weren't an option in the mid-90s when the line was electrified.

It does seem to me that this along with a few other places are favoured hobby horses for those who want to increase service levels - reality is there probably isn't a huge demand and people who do want to use rail for their journeys just head to the most appropriate station for their journey.

And Helsby already gets a much better service being part of the Chester - Manchester line.
 

Vespa

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Extension to Cheshire Oaks would be viable with all the potential footfall, its busy every day of the week especially Christmas.
 

Camden

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Any electrification undertaken in yesteryear was worth doing. The cost of it will have been an absolute bargain versus today's rip off prices.

Also factor in that the cost of running diesel trains is higher than electric, and is easy to see that this branch would today have no trains at all had it not been done.

As it stands, yes it's not the best performing branch, but it still benefits from the economies of scale that go with being on the network of a large metropolitan area. There are many tube branches that at their extremities carry few passengers. Once the trains reach Hooton they will soon fill up and provide a useful 6tph through the main part of the Wirral.

The location of the stations and the lower frequencies Vs bus competition does hamper demand, but this can be remedied - same as the Kirkby branch - by finishing the line and making it more useful.

Some do get "crayonista" with the Merseyrail network, it's true. But then some seem strangely eager to close it down!
 

frodshamfella

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Any electrification undertaken in yesteryear was worth doing. The cost of it will have been an absolute bargain versus today's rip off prices.

Also factor in that the cost of running diesel trains is higher than electric, and is easy to see that this branch would today have no trains at all had it not been done.

As it stands, yes it's not the best performing branch, but it still benefits from the economies of scale that go with being on the network of a large metropolitan area. There are many tube branches that at their extremities carry few passengers. Once the trains reach Hooton they will soon fill up and provide a useful 6tph through the main part of the Wirral.

The location of the stations and the lower frequencies Vs bus competition does hamper demand, but this can be remedied - same as the Kirkby branch - by finishing the line and making it more useful.

Some do get "crayonista" with the Merseyrail network, it's true. But then some seem strangely eager to close it down!

Take it on to Helsby to me seems the natural thing to do.
 

Elecman

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This may well happen with the batteries. Isn't there an issue with third rail or indeed OHLE with regard to sparks and the oil refinery?

There may have been in the past with the loading sidings adjacent the running lines but these are long gone
 

frodshamfella

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"Natural" only if the extra revenue and benefit generated can justify the extra unit in circulation all day every day as a result.

With housing developments in the Ince and Elton area ...and new recent housing in Ellesmere Port. Onward connections at Helsby , there's your revenue. Not mention providing a better service giving less reason to use a car.
 

Ianno87

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With housing developments in the Ince and Elton area ...and new recent housing in Ellesmere Port. Onward connections at Helsby , there's your revenue. Not mention providing a better service giving less reason to use a car.

Depends how many houses. And how many of those residents want to head towards Liverpool on a regular basis.

Justifying a whole extra unit in a circulation all day every day is serious ££££.
 

Bletchleyite

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Depends how many houses. And how many of those residents want to head towards Liverpool on a regular basis.

I'd figure a reasonable number. And that extra unit could be used, if the timings fit, to interwork with something else on the Wirral Lines and make it more reliable, or allow the reinstatement of the missing Capenhurst stops, which clearly aren't an issue in traffic terms but do rather mess with the simplicity of the "all trains all stations" perfect clockface model Merseyrail use. The line to Helsby is quite short, so the unit wouldn't be on that branch for a full hour.

People might also connect towards Manchester at Helsby rather than Chester - cross platform in one direction (might need minor trackwork tweaks) and quicker too.
 

Ianno87

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I'd figure a reasonable number. And that extra unit could be used, if the timings fit, to interwork with something else on the Wirral Lines and make it more reliable, or allow the reinstatement of the missing Capenhurst stops, which clearly aren't an issue in traffic terms but do rather mess with the simplicity of the "all trains all stations" perfect clockface model Merseyrail use. The line to Helsby is quite short, so the unit wouldn't be on that branch for a full hour.

People might also connect towards Manchester at Helsby rather than Chester - cross platform in one direction (might need minor trackwork tweaks) and quicker too.

Some Maths to follow:

-An extra train in service each day means, lets say, three additional drivers to be recruited (one early, late, and spare).

-Say annual salary £50K, so maybe £70k cost each when including overheads, pension etc. So total extra cost £210k per year just for the extra driver cost.


-A return from Ince and Elton to Liverpool via Hooton is £7.70

So that's 27,000 return rail trips per year required to just pay for the drivers *and* rail journeys that wouldn't have happened by some other means (e.g. driving to Hooton then train)

27,000 trips equates to about 100 individual people doing a daily commute.
Let's say 1 person from 100 different houses.


Taking an average rail use of 10% of the population, that suggests effectively 1000 houses in the development are needed just to pay for the additional drivers before any other costs are considered.
 

Bletchleyite

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What you assume there, though, is that Merseyrail covers its costs from the farebox. It doesn't, not even nearly. So continuing that approach, a smaller number of extra trips would be needed.
 

frodshamfella

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I'd figure a reasonable number. And that extra unit could be used, if the timings fit, to interwork with something else on the Wirral Lines and make it more reliable, or allow the reinstatement of the missing Capenhurst stops, which clearly aren't an issue in traffic terms but do rather mess with the simplicity of the "all trains all stations" perfect clockface model Merseyrail use. The line to Helsby is quite short, so the unit wouldn't be on that branch for a full hour.

People might also connect towards Manchester at Helsby rather than Chester - cross platform in one direction (might need minor trackwork tweaks) and quicker too.

There is I understand a student campus at Ince for Chester university this would also generate traffic.
 

frodshamfella

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Depends how many houses. And how many of those residents want to head towards Liverpool on a regular basis.

Justifying a whole extra unit in a circulation all day every day is serious ££££.

I would expect quite a lot would travel towards Liverpool for work shopping and entertainment.
 

Ianno87

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What you assume there, though, is that Merseyrail covers its costs from the farebox. It doesn't, not even nearly. So continuing that approach, a smaller number of extra trips would be needed.

But also as a consequence extra subsidy, to be paid by someone somewhere.

I would expect quite a lot would travel towards Liverpool for work shopping and entertainment.

I'm sure there would be - noting that Chester and Cheshire Oaks are also available, much closer (plus the Trafford Centre via the M56).

But, demonstrated by my worked example above, it needs to be a hell of a lot of demand (and importantly needs to be denand that would not have otherwise used rail at all) to come even close to covering the extra cost of a train in crculation all day, every day. Probably a level of rail use per household far in excess of the typical national average.
 

Bald Rick

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An extra train in service each day means, lets say, three additional drivers to be recruited (one early, late, and spare).

-Say annual salary £50K, so maybe £70k cost each when including overheads, pension etc. So total extra cost £210k per year just for the extra driver cost.

Point well made, but the numbers are a bit out there old boy. One in unit in service all day would have two driver diagrams (at least), and with a standard cover ratio of 2 that’s four drivers. Annual cost of a driver with all extras (NI, Pension, equipment, enhanced pay for certain shifts) is in the region of £100k, and more than that for some TOCs.

So £400k for the driver cost in this case.
 

frodshamfella

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But also as a consequence extra subsidy, to be paid by someone somewhere.



I'm sure there would be - noting that Chester and Cheshire Oaks are also available, much closer (plus the Trafford Centre via the M56).

But, demonstrated by my worked example above, it needs to be a hell of a lot of demand (and importantly needs to be denand that would not have otherwise used rail at all) to come even close to covering the extra cost of a train in crculation all day, every day. Probably a level of rail use per household far in excess of the typical national average.

Which all involve use of a car , or maybe a bus if available for Chester / Cheshire Oaks.
 

Polarbear

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In an ideal world, with sufficient funding, I'd build a short extension from Ellesmere Port to Cheshire Oaks, making that the terminus from Liverpool. Services operated by Northern could also terminate there, after reversal at Ellesmere Port. Given that battery technology has advanced, I doubt the mile or so would need to be electrified.

I know it's unlikely to ever happen for many reasons. Threading even a single line from Ellesmere Port to Cheshire Oaks would be difficult, as ideally, you would want to stay on the west side of the M53. A recent housing development alongside the motorway will, I think, have removed any opportunity to build a line on the west side. To the east of the M53 is industrial land, but whilst the line goes under the motorway just after Ellesmere Port station, any new build line would then need to cross the M53 again to get to Cheshire Oaks, which would be expensive.

Stagecoach used to operate service X8, which stopped at Ellesmere Port station & could be used to connect to Cheshire Oaks. My understanding was that the intention was to have a through ticketing arrangement with Merseyrail, but I don't think that ever happened & the X8 has been withdrawn now.
 

Ianno87

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Knowing the local bus service isnt so great, I think we will just have to agree to disagree there.

My point was that driving would be generally more convenient to reach retail in Chester (via Park & Ride) or Cheshire Oaks, which impacts the likely demand for rail retail journeys to Liverpool

(My post was badly worded!)
 

frodshamfella

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My point was that driving would be generally more convenient to reach retail in Chester (via Park & Ride) or Cheshire Oaks, which impacts the likely demand for rail retail journeys to Liverpool

(My post was badly worded!)

For both of them..its only driving really, both of which I avoid because of parking and congestion, I the demand is quite different for getting to Liverpool which is a large city and offers much more besides shopping.
 
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