Should the Grand National event be scrapped, or should the course be changed?

[adrock1976]

As regulars who visit the General Discussion section may be aware, there are threads for Football, Cricket, and both versions of the oval ball game, but not one for general horse racing (I am not going to start one, as I am aware it can be a deeply divisive "sport").

Being as another year has gone by with another three horses dying at this event, is it time for this event to be scrapped completely? Or alternatively, redesign the course to remove all of the jumps?

Although the Grand National is one of (if not the) big money events of horse racing, has the amounts of silly money overtaken ethics nowadays?

"Up For Review" was the horse that died yesterday at the first fence, making this the third horse that has died during the event and also the third horse that died that was owned by the trainer Mullins.

Bearing in mind that horses do not naturally jump fences while galloping at speed (in showjumping (see Zara Phillips' various performances), it is done at a gentle trotting pace), and get beaten with a whip, if any ordinary members of the public done that, they would get sent to jail.

Also, the horse racing industry has faced allegations of fraud by means of irregular betting in recent times that involved horses ridden by an Irish jockey (cannot remember the name, but think its Kieron Fallon - will check), and former jockey Lester Piggot got sent to jail for tax fraud many years ago.

As the Grand National is a lengthy course, would it be better for all of the jumps and fences to be removed, rather than scrapping the event so as to provide better welfare for the horses, and more importantly, for no more horses to die?

What do others think?

Note that I am not having a go at every horse event in general, just the Grand National.

 

[Mag_seven]

After hearing that a horse had died at the first fence, and then hearing about the other horses that had died I did start to think about the ethics of this particular race. If the phenomenon of horses dying is confined to this particular race then yes it should either be banned or modified, if however it is more widespread in horse racing then a wider debate should ensue.

 

[Cowley]

As regulars who visit the General Discussion section may be aware, there are threads for Football, Cricket, and both versions of the oval ball game, but not one for general horse racing (I am not going to start one, as I am aware it can be a deeply divisive "sport").

Being as another year has gone by with another three horses dying at this event, is it time for this event to be scrapped completely? Or alternatively, redesign the course to remove all of the jumps?

Although the Grand National is one of (if not the) big money events of horse racing, has the amounts of silly money overtaken ethics nowadays?

"Up For Review" was the horse that died yesterday at the first fence, making this the third horse that has died during the event and also the third horse that died that was owned by the trainer Mullins.

Bearing in mind that horses do not naturally jump fences while galloping at speed (in showjumping (see Zara Phillips' various performances), it is done at a gentle trotting pace), and get beaten with a whip, if any ordinary members of the public done that, they would get sent to jail.

Also, the horse racing industry has faced allegations of fraud by means of irregular betting in recent times that involved horses ridden by an Irish jockey (cannot remember the name, but think its Kieron Fallon - will check), and former jockey Lester Piggot got sent to jail for tax fraud many years ago.

As the Grand National is a lengthy course, would it be better for all of the jumps and fences to be removed, rather than scrapping the event so as to provide better welfare for the horses, and more importantly, for no more horses to die?

What do others think?

Note that I am not having a go at every horse event in general, just the Grand National.

I think I probably agree with you on this Adrock.
I don’t know enough about horse racing to make a properly informed decision, but it does seem to put an enormous amount of physical stress on the thoroughbreds that are made to take part.
The Grand National increasingly seems to leave a bad taste in the mouth...

 

[DarloRich]

Being as another year has gone by with another three horses dying at this event, is it time for this event to be scrapped completely? Or alternatively, redesign the course to remove all of the jumps?

No and No. Despite your final statement you are essentially stating that jump racing should be prohibited.

Although the Grand National is one of (if not the) big money events of horse racing, has the amounts of silly money overtaken ethics nowadays?

No. The course, the jumps and the numbers taken part has changed regualry over the years.

Bearing in mind that horses do not naturally jump fences while galloping at speed (in showjumping (see Zara Phillips' various performances), it is done at a gentle trotting pace), and get beaten with a whip, if any ordinary members of the public done that, they would get sent to jail.

no they wouldn't.

Also, the horse racing industry has faced allegations of fraud by means of irregular betting in recent times that involved horses ridden by an Irish jockey (cannot remember the name, but think its Kieron Fallon - will check), and former jockey Lester Piggot got sent to jail for tax fraud many years ago.

and what does that have to do with your initial question? That is more a question about the betting industry and personal values!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Do they still make dog food from horses ?

 

[DarloRich]

Do they still make dog food from horses ?

no idea. Is that an urban myth?

 

[Cowley]

no idea. Is that an urban myth?

I thought it was glue?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

no idea. Is that an urban myth?

Difficult to track down info on it. The US banned horsemeat in pet food back in the 70s but I don't believe there is any legislation in this country. It was definitely used in canned dog food in this country with some records suggesting up to 50'000 horses a year were used for this purpose but it is difficult to see when, or indeed if, the practice ended.
The line being of course - why the outrage over one or two horses killed which are generally kept in excellent health where there is no outrage if you're feeding them to your mutt.

 

[Geezertronic]

It is similar to Greyhound Racing which is worse in my eyes. More legislation and enforcement is needed rather than a ban, as a ban would only lead to underground racing which would be worse for the animals. The average Joe just sees an "exciting race" rather than how the animals are treated both before and after the race.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Actually plenty of places online to buy horsemeat for your dog or even yourself. Not sure if any of the mainstream canned dog foods still have horsemeat though.


https://thedogsbutcher.co.uk/product/1kg-horse-meat-mince-from-drug-free-wild-ponies-boneless/

So, is it okay to eat them but not okay to race them over fences ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, is it okay to eat them but not okay to race them over fences ?

There is a bit of a difference between humane slaughter (as long as it is humane) and causing pain for human entertainment, though, just to play devil's advocate?

We banned fox hunting (because it's the latter), but have not banned shooting foxes which are vermin to farmers, for instance.

 

[Essan]

Bearing in mind that horses do not naturally jump fences while galloping at speed

Which is why you never see horses that have unseated their riders continue in the race, jumping several more fences and often (though not this year) even leading for a time ....

(Most) horses love it. But occasionally they don't want to jump. So they refuse. And if a horse doesn't want to race or jump there is nothing you can do to make them.

Yes, it's unfortunate that occasionally in national hunt racing a horse is injured and is put to sleep. I'd prefer it if money were put aside to care for injured horses - in a retirement home, as it were - and maybe that would be a solution? Though I appreciate that even that wouldn't always be possible and the best welfare for the horse needs to be taken into consideration.

Meanwhile, humans also die in various sports and pastimes. Should they all be banned too?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Meanwhile, humans also die in various sports and pastimes. Should they all be banned too?

I guess the humans can consent.

Here's the BMC (British Mountaineering Council) Participation Statement for climbing activities, as an example:

The BMC recognises that climbing and mountaineering are activities with a danger of personal injury or death. Participants in these activities should be aware of and accept these risks and be responsible for their own actions.

Heavy, no?

 

[The_Train]

Same debate year on year and yet the race (as with most of the major jump races) just keeps getting bigger and more popular by the year. These horses are bred to be raced over jumps and are doing it every day and considering the cost involved, I doubt any respectable trainer would waste their time with a horse that clearly shows an inability or unwillingness to jump fences. Therefore, I would suggest it's a bit daft to question whether horses enjoy doing it

As the OP questioned whether fences should be removed for the grand national, I would just like to point out that there is a part of the horse racing season that is purely run on flat courses (no jumps) and horses also die at these. Unfortunately race horses are athletes and are therefore at risk, just the same as F1 drivers, runners, footballers and even golfers judging by the recent sad news of a golfer dying during a competition

 

[tbtc]

you are essentially stating that jump racing should be prohibited

I'll happily admit to knowing nothing about horse racing (like greyhound racing, I've been a couple of times in the past as part of group activities, it's a day out, it's something to bet on, but I've no particular interest in the "sport" or the animals)...

...but there are plenty of other jump races in the UK (AIUI) - is the reason for the Grand National having so many deaths?

Is it that there's so much attention paid to the Grand National (so any deaths get media focus that wouldn't happen in a lesser race at Ayr/ Musselburgh/ Doncaster etc on the same afternoon)?

Is it that the fences are significantly higher at the Grand National?

Is it that horses in the Grand National are raced that much harder due to the prize(s) on offer?

(I genuinely don't know - it just seems that we have this argument every year but never seem to mention horse deaths at other courses)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The number of horses in the race is probably a factor too. At a regular (i.e. non-glamourous) race meet, each race will have about 6-10 horses taking part.

 

[eastdyke]

As regulars who visit the General Discussion section may be aware, there are threads for Football, Cricket, and both versions of the oval ball game, but not one for general horse racing (I am not going to start one, as I am aware it can be a deeply divisive "sport").

Being as another year has gone by with another three horses dying at this event, is it time for this event to be scrapped completely? Or alternatively, redesign the course to remove all of the jumps?

Although the Grand National is one of (if not the) big money events of horse racing, has the amounts of silly money overtaken ethics nowadays?

"Up For Review" was the horse that died yesterday at the first fence, making this the third horse that has died during the event and also the third horse that died that was owned by the trainer Mullins.

Bearing in mind that horses do not naturally jump fences while galloping at speed (in showjumping (see Zara Phillips' various performances), it is done at a gentle trotting pace), and get beaten with a whip, if any ordinary members of the public done that, they would get sent to jail.

Also, the horse racing industry has faced allegations of fraud by means of irregular betting in recent times that involved horses ridden by an Irish jockey (cannot remember the name, but think its Kieron Fallon - will check), and former jockey Lester Piggot got sent to jail for tax fraud many years ago.

As the Grand National is a lengthy course, would it be better for all of the jumps and fences to be removed, rather than scrapping the event so as to provide better welfare for the horses, and more importantly, for no more horses to die?

What do others think?

Note that I am not having a go at every horse event in general, just the Grand National.

There is a lot there, clearly something that you have given a lot of thought to!

Horse Racing has become more contentious in recent years, probably much to do with Media of all sorts and Pressure Groups of all persuasions being able to promote their cause more directly. The Grand National as the most famous of races provides a particular focus.

Horse Racing (AKA 'The Sport of Kings') was founded on both privilege and money. However, whilst people make money within the industry which employs some 70-80,000 in the UK (I don't have an up-to-date number), owners need to be very lucky to actually turn a profit!
Most of the employees work very hard for rather low wages. They do not see 'silly money'.

I question some of your facts.

The 3 day meeting which includes the Grand National is generally known as the Aintree Festival. There are 21 races over the 3 days, only 3 of these being over The Grand National Course/Fences. The other 18 take place over the Mildmay Course, either hurdles, (steeple)chase fences or in the case of 2 races actually on the flat without obstacles.

AIUI only 1 horse (Up For Review) died as a result of the Grand National. The horse was unfortunately brought down at the first fence by a fallen horse (which did not die). This was the first death in the race since 2012. Two other horses did die as a result of racing in the other events at the Festival.

Sadly racehorses die when turned out in paddocks, those horses would not actually exist without the Horse Racing Industry.

Willie Mullins is a racehorse trainer (not owner) who trained Up for Review for the owners.
The trainers of the other 2 horses that died in the other races were Dan Skelton and Lucinda Russell.
Fraud and corruption are not in the singular domain of Horse Racing, it's relevance to the Grand National is minor.

My take:
It behoves the Industry to scrutinise all aspects. As to safety, changes have been made and will continue to evolve based on study and analysis. It will never be the case that no race horses die, just that design and welfare will ensure that number is kept to a minimum.
Much like road safety really.

Edited only to correct course name.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

There is a bit of a difference between humane slaughter (as long as it is humane) and causing pain for human entertainment, though, just to play devil's advocate?

We banned fox hunting (because it's the latter), but have not banned shooting foxes which are vermin to farmers, for instance.

As the saying goes The Kindest Butchers have the Sharpest Knives. Though at least with horse racing death and injury are risks rather than being the main event as in bullfighting.

 

[whhistle]

Unfortunately race horses are athletes and are therefore at risk, just the same as F1 drivers, runners, footballers and even golfers

But humans can say no.
Horses are trained to expect pain when they are not performing as expected by a human.
That's right and okay is it?

 

[whhistle]

I don't really have much of an opinion as it's not my world but I think horse racing isn't very nice.

Have a festival, show horses this and that by all means but for what it is, horse racing is quite beating an animal to make it run faster.
Am I allowed to do that to a human? No.
A hamster? No.
Not allowed to stomp on a cats tail to make it squeal the loudest either.

The only two reasons I can think of why it's acceptable for horses is 1) the money involved and 2) grandfather rights of the "sport".

Maybe we should start doing it at the Olympics.

I can see it changing significantly within 10 years as more pressure grows.

 

[The_Train]

But humans can say no.
Horses are trained to expect pain when they are not performing as expected by a human.
That's right and okay is it?

So can a horse, they do have a certain level of intellect. If they don't like what they are being made to do, they won't do it. Do you think every horse that is bred for racing actually makes it out onto a racecourse? I imagine many have said 'nah I don't fancy this', refused to go over any jumps and have been sold off to other owners where it will live a different life

 

[eastdyke]

Re references to pain and beating, I assume posters are talking about use of a 'Whip'?
The Whip itself has over the years been updated, I have seen demonstrations where media presenters have been whipped without apparent discomfort.
The use of the Whip is regulated in its use by
https://www.britishhorseracing.com/regulation/the-whip/

What sort of whip is used in British racing?

The current design of the whip was developed with input from the RSPCA. The whip is foam-padded and energy absorbing, comprising a composite spine with a polymer surround, encased in thick foam padding.
There is only one current accredited supplier of whips for use in British racing, to ensure that whips carried by jockeys in Britain conform to required standards. Jockeys’ whips are checked by the Clerk of the Scales to ensure they are in good condition before they are used in a race.

Edited to correct quote brackets

 

[DarloRich]

Difficult to track down info on it. The US banned horsemeat in pet food back in the 70s but I don't believe there is any legislation in this country. It was definitely used in canned dog food in this country with some records suggesting up to 50'000 horses a year were used for this purpose but it is difficult to see when, or indeed if, the practice ended.
The line being of course - why the outrage over one or two horses killed which are generally kept in excellent health where there is no outrage if you're feeding them to your mutt.

Horsemeat is a decent quality meat. We should eat it.

I note your final line. I like it.

Is it that there's so much attention paid to the Grand National (so any deaths get media focus that wouldn't happen in a lesser race at Ayr/ Musselburgh/ Doncaster etc on the same afternoon)?

Is it that the fences are significantly higher at the Grand National?

Is it that horses in the Grand National are raced that much harder due to the prize(s) on offer?

National Hunt is split into 2 classes chase and hurdles. Chases are between 2 and 4 miles long while hurdles are 2-3 miles long. Chase fences are about 4 1/2 feet while hurdles are about 3 1/2ft high. Numbers vary but are not as high as the Grand National. The Cheltenham Gold Cup this year had 16 runners.

The Grand National is a long distance steeplechase. It is 4 and a bit miles long and involves 30 fences. They are between 4 1/2 and 5 feet in height ( apart from the chair which is 5'2") some have ditches although these have been changed over the years to try and limit the damage to horses. There are a larger than usual number of horses invovled.
The limit is now 40 which is a bit high in my view. My view, based entirely on no science whatsoever, is that it is the speed of the race that is the causes of any issue not the fences or the numbers. Then horses seem to travel much faster at this race than others ( although i am no expert)

The average death figure is a touch higher than National Hunt racing generally and it is Becher's Brook (fence 6 & 22) that claims the most deaths. The course has been widened and there has been loads of investment in veterinary facilities, entry requirement shave been tightened, the canal turn has been changed to try and spread out the arrival rather than have everyone bunch up on the racing line and the run up to the fences has been chnaged to allow the horses better sight lines ( something to do with orange boards at the foot of the fence that i don't understand!) & the fences now have a flexible plastic core ( as opposed to the old school wooden fences) with the heights have been reduced.

Worth noting there were no deaths for the 7 years up to 2019. A list of the fatalities can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equine_fatalities_in_the_Grand_National

 

[Bletchleyite]

Horsemeat is a decent quality meat. We should eat it.

I don't like the taste personally (I'm oddly squeamish with meat, I only ever seem to like the ones I grew up with, whereas I'm very open to random vegetables I've not had before) but I see no particular reason why we should eat one type of animal but not another, provided they are raised and slaughtered humanely. Either they are all OK (subject to not being endangered species) or none are.

 

[greyman42]

Horsemeat is a decent quality meat. We should eat it.

Is it what we would class as a 'healthy meat'?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don't like the taste personally (I'm oddly squeamish with meat, I only ever seem to like the ones I grew up with, whereas I'm very open to random vegetables I've not had before) but I see no particular reason why we should eat one type of animal but not another, provided they are raised and slaughtered humanely. Either they are all OK (subject to not being endangered species) or none are.

I've never (knowingly) eaten horse but I wouldn't be averse to trying it. Apparently Leeds and Doncaster were among the last places in the UK to have thriving horse-butchers operating in the towns. Hence Leodsians/Loiners also occasionally being referred to as "kicker-eaters".

I see what you mean about which animals we consider acceptable to eat. I have no qualms eating rabbit but would starve before eating cat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've never (knowingly) eaten horse but I wouldn't be averse to trying it.

It's very similar to beef but with a slightly different taste. I think the difference is probably to the same extent as the difference between say turkey and chicken.

If you did want to try it, it's widely available in most French-speaking places.

FWIW I don't think I'd *like* to eat cat or dog (as I said I'm a bit squeamish of unfamiliar meats), but I can't see any moral reason why they should not be eaten - to me, it's either OK to kill an animal for food or it isn't - I see no reason to limit it to a specific subset of them morally. Nor swan, though I believe the Queen takes exception.

 

[Strat-tastic]

I've had zebra if that counts

 

[Cowley]

I've had zebra if that counts

notgoingtosayitnotgoingtosayit
Weren’t the stripes a bit off putting?

 

[bnm]

So can a horse, they do have a certain level of intellect. If they don't like what they are being made to do, they won't do it. Do you think every horse that is bred for racing actually makes it out onto a racecourse? I imagine many have said 'nah I don't fancy this', refused to go over any jumps and have been sold off to other owners where it will live a different life

Those that don't make the grade are indeed sold on. To knackers. As are ones that are still fit and healthy but no longer competitive. The different life they have is often very short. No gentle retirement for any but the best stud and breeding mare examples. The majority are destroyed. It's simply not cost effective for an owner to keep a horse that isn't earning. And having been raised and trained only to race they are too highly strung to be suitable for private ownership for horse-riding activities.

Horse racing is an appalling sport and should be banned outright. It's a 'sport' that result in annual deaths of competitors averaging 150 in the UK. Its a 'sport' that abrogates any responsibility to animal welfare once a competitor stops earning. Sport of Kings my arse.

https://www.horsedeathwatch.com