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Should the guard do the trolley?

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mralexn

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Vending machines wouldn't appear on surburban trains, we're talking medium and long-distance services with guards/CCTV and plenty of other passengers, where the risk of vandalism is only going to be the same as vandalism to the toilets/window shades/tray tables or whatever. They seem to manage fine in the rest of Europe anyway. I don't really think that's a reason not to install them.

I am thinking of CrossCountry services where the trolley can either be absent for a part of the journey, in the other set on a double Voyager or just nowhere to be seen! Not great if you want a coffee after a few hours - and many people do!

And what happens if these "machines" go wrong,
No catering at all from Aberdeen - Penzance :P
 
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Scotrail84

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In Rail magazine, it was reported there was a shortage of catering staff on a Virgin service running non stop from Preston to London Euston. Should the guard have helped out with the catering service on this long non-stop section of the journey?




Short answer is NO, although guards on the far north line used to do it during the quiet months im not sure if this still happens
 

spacehopper

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Look forward to doing my basic food hygiene certificate.

Would you like fries with that sir and some bacteria from all money I handle, the buckeye I've lifted, the doors I've just shut that weren't covered in toilet waste that goes straight onto the track and splashbacks on the doors. This is my new high vis orange chefs outfit. Sorry your cheese burger was over microwaved sir, I'm just a glorified kit-kat seller.
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[/B]

Short answer is NO, although guards on the far north line used to do it during the quiet months im not sure if this still happens

Still is in CRI? At least the guard wasn't liable if the miniatures went missing while carrying out other duties.
 

12CSVT

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Conversely, would you want catering staff carrying out safety critical tasks which they are not trained to do if the train is involved in an incident or accident ?

If anything, there should be a guard on every train when it is in passenger service, and they should be there primarily for safety critical duties. To say that a guard's job isn't skilled quite frankly isn't true.
 

exile

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Yes - staff the trolley, clean the loos, and sing a selection of hits from the West End and Broadway, all at the same time.....
 

Prometheus

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Thought it had been a couple of weeks since we last had a DOO thread all guards are lazy and just sit and read the paper and it is a totally unskilled job that in this day and age shouldn't exist except bob crow(E) and his loony members scaremongering again. :roll:

What would you like us to do- dig a hole as well.

Get rid of booking office- replace with reliable, knowledgable TVM.
Get rid of cleaners- punters will clear own mess away.
Get rid of platform staff- Mr Tony can do ramp himself.
Get rid of guard- trains are safe enough such a victorian concept.
Get rid of buffet- who likes hot food and cold beer anyway.
Get rid of driver- look at DLR it is so alike to ECML we can have ATO anywhere.

I'd love the cheap value for money faceless railway where we are safe under the watchful eye of CCTV and help points. Why do we need to staff the railway? All over paid, lazy militant morons pulling a few levers, pushing a few buttons. I much prefer my freeze dried instant maxpac.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QDEPoMNvWM&feature=youtube_gdata

(2.03 onwards)



Brilliant, brilliant post. Best in this whole thread. Thank you! :lol:

And the linked video is brilliant too. :D
 

GadgetMan

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Isn't this country's population just brilliant. On the one hand everyone is moaning there aren't enough jobs in this country for little Jonny to apply for. The politicians and businesses need to get a grip and create jobs.

And then the same people are asking chaps in jobs to justify their employment.

In a sense almost every job done by a person can be carried out by a machine of some sort if we really put our minds to it. So how then will the economy function. And I wouldn't worry about the railway as robots won't need to commute, and people won't have a job to pay for tickets to visit family. Whoopy we can do away with all public transport. Self driving road vehicles could deliver groceries to those fortunate enough to have a few quid in the bank.

Yes the above sounds a bit silly. But some people seem to want everyone's job done away with bar their own.
 

WestCoast

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And what happens if these "machines" go wrong,
No catering at all from Aberdeen - Penzance :P

No, because they should be supplemented by staff during certain sections of the route in a buffet-style area. But that probably wouldn't happen as XC Voyagers have all the prestige of a megabus...

I was on an XC Voyager the other week from Bristol to Manchester and I saw the trolley once, I have no idea where it was the rest of the time as there was no announcements made to its whereabouts. Equally so, on another journey from Birmingham to Bristol, the trolley was in the front set and I was in the rear set.
 
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WestCoast

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Look forward to doing my basic food hygiene certificate.

Would you like fries with that sir and some bacteria from all money I handle, the buckeye I've lifted, the doors I've just shut that weren't covered in toilet waste that goes straight onto the track and splashbacks on the doors. This is my new high vis orange chefs outfit. Sorry your cheese burger was over microwaved sir, I'm just a glorified kit-kat seller.

While I don't agree at all with the notion of guards doing catering duties on trains, it's not unheard of or ridiculous for "safety-critical staff" to have to perform catering/cleaning duties.

On aircraft under 50 seats (example being bmi Regional operating domestic UK flights) a single member of cabin crew has many safety roles such as operating (often dirty) manual doors and steps, securing the cabin for take-off/landing and communicating with the captain, checking passengers are safely seated with luggage in the right place, checking all the safety equipment is activated and so on. In addition to this the same person has to check the toilets are clean, brew and prepare the sale of hot/cold beverages and snacks (handling money in the process) and then collect rubbish.

Again, guards doing catering is not appropriate on trains, but I am just pointing out what happens in other industries.
 
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ANorthernGuard

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anyone else want to slowly downgrade the guards role? I'm good at what I do, catering staff are good at what they do, lets leave it at that

We are safety Critical for a damn good reason
 

WestCoast

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anyone else want to slowly downgrade the guards role? I'm good at what I do, catering staff are good at what they do, lets leave it at that

We are safety Critical for a damn good reason

The guard's role is indeed critical on a train, but the guard's role on a train mixes safety-critical aspects with the task of checking and issuing tickets (in most areas) and providing information and reassurance to passengers. There isn't any time for doing catering or cleaning the toilets!

However, I was merely pointing out that other members of staff in different industries do have to take on catering/cleaning roles as well as essential safety and operational tasks. I don't really see how a guard would even have time for these things on most routes!
 

John55

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I find the reactions of the railway staff to subjects like this dreadfully depressing. Anyone would think that a guard has to sit with his hand on the emergency brake from start to finish of the journey to achieve his "safety critical" role. It is patently obvious that the safety critical aspects of a guard/train manager role are intermittent and if everything is going well take up a relatively little proportion of his/her time.

When things go wrong it is very different.

In the 40 odd years I have been travelling by train I have several times been served refreshments by guards/train managers helping out short staffed buffet/shop attendants or manning the trolley and not once did the train derail, catch fire or otherwise come to harm.

When the guard has completed his primary function there can be no problem with him/her performing other tasks which delivers a service to his customers on the train. I once travelled from Euston to Liverpool and the guard/train manager spent 90% of the journey entertaining a group of semi-disabled children returning from a trip to London. Should this guard be dismissed for failing in the safety critical aspects of his job?
 

embers25

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So all DOO trains are death traps then clearly...noone should ever travel on FCC again and as for Docklands...omg we are all going to die!! Planes have to have at least one other member of staff apart from the pilot because that position IS safety critical...until 9/11 that person could double as a copilot and do the safety demo and serve food and drinks on smaller planes and that was not seen as a risk. It was only stopped due to the cockpit now needing to remain locked. However the one safety critical stewardess still does that role with no issue.
Given we have DOO trains that operate daily without hassle clearly the guard is not needed and just kept on because the TOC's will never be able to get rid of them because the unions would force drivers to strike too if they tried meaning no trains. So yet again the unions hold the travelling public to ransom.

I understand all the guards on here want to protect their jobs and not all guards sit reading papers but the position is as unneeded as a bus conductor became. Lets face it a bus conductor was just a bus guard after all.
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There isn't any time for doing catering or cleaning the toilets!

Really...then guards are never seen sitting reading newspapers in their little offices because they are so overworked! Come on. On many trips on Virgin the guard only leaves his home to open doors and that is in several hours...clearly so overworked and underpaid!
 

CarterUSM

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Usual pish I see. This place really is so predictable nowadays. DOO this, Bob Crow that, unions bad, staff lazy, etc etc etc.
 

SS4

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So all DOO trains are death traps then clearly...noone should ever travel on FCC again and as for Docklands...omg we are all going to die!! Planes have to have at least one other member of staff apart from the pilot because that position IS safety critical...until 9/11 that person could double as a copilot and do the safety demo and serve food and drinks on smaller planes and that was not seen as a risk. It was only stopped due to the cockpit now needing to remain locked. However the one safety critical stewardess still does that role with no issue.
Given we have DOO trains that operate daily without hassle clearly the guard is not needed and just kept on because the TOC's will never be able to get rid of them because the unions would force drivers to strike too if they tried meaning no trains. So yet again the unions hold the travelling public to ransom.

Are you in the Conservative party? That quote has been rolled out so often as to become meaningless. Like the Tories you seem to overlook data that doesn't tally with your conclusion.
Why not hold a meeting about the future of guards but don't bother inviting RMT since they'll have the cheek to disagree.

I understand all the guards on here want to protect their jobs and not all guards sit reading papers but the position is as unneeded as a bus conductor became. Lets face it a bus conductor was just a bus guard after all.

Apples and oranges

Really...then guards are never seen sitting reading newspapers in their little offices because they are so overworked! Come on. On many trips on Virgin the guard only leaves his home to open doors and that is in several hours...clearly so overworked and underpaid!

Know this for a fact do you? Or even probable?
 

Pumbaa

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I understand all the guards on here want to protect their jobs and not all guards sit reading papers but the position is as unneeded as a bus conductor became. Lets face it a bus conductor was just a bus guard after all.

I disagree at the moment - but it will come a time when the role of the Guard is entirely superfluous. When all trains have a modern and driver friendly reliable communication system with both passengers and control, when doors can be operated entirely satisfactorily from the cab and there are assistants selling tickets/giving out passenger information, then the role of a "guard" will be unneeded and the role of "guarding" shared between several members of staff.

It is sad that so many on here point blank refuse to accept that the nature of their job will change - the industry has to move forward.
 

embers25

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All jobs have rules and regulations but my point wasn't that guards don't have rules and regulations it was that the role could be eliminated immediately from a large portion of the network and following limited infrastructure improvements from all or almost all of the network. If the role was as critical as all guards claim no driver would ever drive in DOO mode. Also if guards not being there is sooo risky then they should never leave their office and never by distracted by inconvenient passengers.

DOO is common throughout the world without issue for both trains and trams.

I appreciate the loss of guards would mean many being made unemployed but welcome to the 21st century where technology makes people redundant every day without safety issues. Unfortunately a unions core role (although many will dispute this) is to basically protect jobs (and thus it's union dues) regardless of whether those jobs are actually needed...
 

ANorthernGuard

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Pumbaa

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Priceless, just priceless.

If ever there was a troll.................

Mmm - embers25 is in essence right though. A labour union is to 'maintain and improve conditions of employment'. So good on them for doing so, and when guards are eventually removed from trains and their duties shared between other members of staff, I hope the union can negotiate a good package for them or find alternative employment.
 

ralphchadkirk

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I'm not going to get into the whole DOO debate. Clearly there are some places where DOO works, and there are also places where it won't.

However, it is also clear that some people do not understand the role of the guard. The guard is not there for when everything is running fine. He's there for when things start going wrong, and he's paid for that knowledge.

Unions are also for the protection of their members. That's what they do, and the RMT does a bloody good job at that!
 

embers25

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Priceless, just priceless.

If ever there was a troll.................

So someone disagrees with your point of view and that is your response...wow!! Almost as immature as many of Bob Crow's comments! As for the safety issue raised in another post. What if in the accident the guard was with the driver and also injured then who deals with safety...clearly we need 2 guards but what if they are both injured ...and so on and before long the train is nothing but guards! I agree 2 is better than 1 but in this case not by much as we have mobiles now so passengers can notify authorities just as easily. I agree the information won't be as precise but it wouldn't take more than a few seconds to figure out the required details.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Unions are also for the protection of their members. That's what they do, and the RMT does a bloody good job at that!

They do I agree...we have thousands of jobs that are not needed but can't be gotten rid of due to the RMT. As a result we pay much higher train fares...so thanks RMT. A train service in the 21st century with a union from the 18th century.
 

ANorthernGuard

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So someone disagrees with your point of view and that is your response...wow!! Almost as immature as many of Bob Crow's comments! As for the safety issue raised in another post. What if in the accident the guard was with the driver and also injured then who deals with safety...clearly we need 2 guards but what if they are both injured ...and so on and before long the train is nothing but guards! I agree 2 is better than 1 but in this case not by much as we have mobiles now so passengers can notify authorities just as easily. I agree the information won't be as precise but it wouldn't take more than a few seconds to figure out the required details.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


They do I agree...we have thousands of jobs that are not needed but can't be gotten rid of due to the RMT. As a result we pay much higher train fares...so thanks RMT. A train service in the 21st century with a union from the 18th century.

sounds like a Troll to me..btw Train fare rises the government pockets the RMT "members like myself" certainly do not! you certainly have zero idea what the guards role is, maybe you should spend a few hours reading the rule book, learning traction, learning the routes and them tickets and customer service, takes about 3 months on average, you ask the majority of DOO drivers what they prefer, with or without a guard, the majority would easily say WITH.
 
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