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Should the guard do the trolley?

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Ferret

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Ah yes Embers, because a passenger involved in an accident has a route card which he signs to say he's competent on the route he is taking each and every time he buys a ticket? Trolling? I'm not sure. Flawed argument? Oh yes.
 
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Jock

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So someone disagrees with your point of view and that is your response...wow!! Almost as immature as many of Bob Crow's comments! As for the safety issue raised in another post. What if in the accident the guard was with the driver and also injured then who deals with safety...clearly we need 2 guards but what if they are both injured ...and so on and before long the train is nothing but guards! I agree 2 is better than 1 but in this case not by much as we have mobiles now so passengers can notify authorities just as easily. I agree the information won't be as precise but it wouldn't take more than a few seconds to figure out the required details.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


They do I agree...we have thousands of jobs that are not needed but can't be gotten rid of due to the RMT. As a result we pay much higher train fares...so thanks RMT. A train service in the 21st century with a union from the 18th century.


Oh so now its the RMT's fault for the fare SET BY THE DFT...

Really? Are you honestly this dimwitted in real life...
 

ANorthernGuard

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I don't doubt it but like any other industry the railway isn't run for the employees.

No just safety, and the drivers usually feel safer knowing if they are incapacitated there is someone to back them up, oh hang on DOO=Driver Only Operation also means if the Drivers injured the Passengers fend for themselves, 750dc down below or 25,000 up above, which way is the next train coming? is it a bi-directional line? etc etc.

to make it simple

WITHOUT a Guard the chances of injury or worse are higher, you don't need risk assessments etc. to tell anyone with an ounce of common sense that.
 

Wath Yard

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You might not need risk assessments but you do need evidence, not just 'common sense'. When a number of DOO trains were stranded in the high winds in Strathclyde recently did any passengers come to any harm? Were they more at risk than those on the trains stranded in the Midlands?
 
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embers25

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sounds like a Troll to me..btw Train fare rises the government pockets the RMT "members like myself" certainly do not! you certainly have zero idea what the guards role is, maybe you should spend a few hours reading the rule book, learning traction, learning the routes and them tickets and customer service, takes about 3 months on average, you ask the majority of DOO drivers what they prefer, with or without a guard, the majority would easily say WITH.

I didn't say RMT members pocketed train fare rises (but why let facts get in the way of things). I said fares are higher due to having to pay more staff than are actually needed. Yes the government set the fares but the rises would be lower or actually probably reductions if cost savings could be achieved and removing guards is one massive cost saving. Of course DOO drivers would say they prefer having a guard as I too would prefer to have someone else to help with my job but it doesn't mean it is necessary. I'm not saying you don't have much to learn to be a guard either I am just saying its not a needed position. Also as someone else just said where is you evidence to back up that a DOO train is less safe in an accident/incident. People still jump off of SWT and SET trains and walk down the tracks all the time during disruption despite guards being present.

It's funny how anyone criticising anything to do with guards on here is automatically chastised or accused of trolling. I realise it is your livelihood but that doesn't make it an essential job. It also doesn't automatically make your view correct.
 

SS4

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I didn't say RMT members pocketed train fare rises (but why let facts get in the way of things). I said fares are higher due to having to pay more staff than are actually needed. Yes the government set the fares but the rises would be lower or actually probably reductions if cost savings could be achieved and removing guards is one massive cost saving. Of course DOO drivers would say they prefer having a guard as I too would prefer to have someone else to help with my job but it doesn't mean it is necessary. I'm not saying you don't have much to learn to be a guard either I am just saying its not a needed position. Also as someone else just said where is you evidence to back up that a DOO train is less safe in an accident/incident. People still jump off of SWT and SET trains and walk down the tracks all the time during disruption despite guards being present.

It's funny how anyone criticising anything to do with guards on here is automatically chastised or accused of trolling. I realise it is your livelihood but that doesn't make it an essential job. It also doesn't automatically make your view correct.

Or the money goes directly into the pockets of TOC management. That's how private companies work, to maximize profit for shareholders. It's not inherently bad by any stretch but to argue that losing staff would cause fares to drop is fallacious.

You still haven't substantiated that there are too many staff.
 

Ferret

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It's funny how anyone criticising anything to do with guards on here is automatically chastised or accused of trolling. I realise it is your livelihood but that doesn't make it an essential job. It also doesn't automatically make your view correct.

Neither does McNulty's ill-thought out report make your view correct. Still, we do tend to deal in facts on here, so, when you can bring some cast-iron unchallengeable facts in to back up your arguments, you'll be taken seriously. Until then, I suspect the usual suspects will treat your arguments with the appropriate level of contempt. Over to you...

 

SS4

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It's funny how anyone criticising anything to do with guards on here is automatically chastised or accused of trolling. I realise it is your livelihood but that doesn't make it an essential job. It also doesn't automatically make your view correct.

Claiming the same thing over and over without substantiation is flaming though ;)
 

embers25

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Ah yes Embers, because a passenger involved in an accident has a route card which he signs to say he's competent on the route he is taking each and every time he buys a ticket? Trolling? I'm not sure. Flawed argument? Oh yes.

This is an interesting one as several times now my train has been diverted via the West Midlands due to issues on the Trent Valley and each time when asked where we are going or where we are right now the guard had no clue other than that we had been diverted because we turned off at Rugby. Great route knowledge. Also in the last case the passengers had to inform the guard we were diverted as he hadn't even realised so that would have been useful if we had crashed. I also didn't say the passengers would have route competency just that a quick mobile call to 999 and even if they only said which train they were on the location could easily be ascertained.
 

MidnightFlyer

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...and Virgin could benefit from work experiencers being trolley workers/extra guards in this context

I suspect both are far too safety critical to be taken on by work experience placements - there was enough paperwork and forms to get me to work in a travel centre! Further, I'm not entirely sure what an extra guard would do. They couldn't check tickets, or control doors (I suspect), maybe announcements and that would probably be it.

A lot of companies have also abolished work experience - I suspect cuts to resources and backroom staff may have something to do with that. I know at least one TOC stopped because they didn't want to take on work experience whilst telling contract staff that they were out of a job there.
 

embers25

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Claiming the same thing over and over without substantiation is flaming though ;)

I haven't seen any guard or the RMT for that matter provide any substantiated evidence to the contrary either but yet that doesn't matter because Bob Crow is clearly a man of truth and reason who can be trusted!!!
 

SS4

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Strange. Every diversion I've been on the guard has known what's happening.

Anecdotal experiences are fine but are hardly evidence
 

Ferret

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This is an interesting one as several times now my train has been diverted via the West Midlands due to issues on the Trent Valley and each time when asked where we are going or where we are right now the guard had no clue other than that we had been diverted because we turned off at Rugby. Great route knowledge. Also in the last case the passengers had to inform the guard we were diverted as he hadn't even realised so that would have been useful if we had crashed. I also didn't say the passengers would have route competency just that a quick mobile call to 999 and even if they only said which train they were on the location could easily be ascertained.

You're assuming that passengers have the first clue what train they are on. Meanwhile, as the emergency services piece together what and where and why and how, you've wasted valuable time.

As for the rest of this nonsense I'm quoting - how did you ascertain the Guard had no clue? Did you ask him to name all the stations via Bescot, speed limits, names of running lines, controlling boxes? No, I didn't think so - cos he'd have told you to get lost and stop wasting his time. Now, can I get you a shovel?
 

SS4

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I haven't seen any guard or the RMT for that matter provide any substantiated evidence to the contrary either but yet that doesn't matter because Bob Crow is clearly a man of truth and reason who can be trusted!!!

You're making the statement guards are unnecessary. You need to supply proof this is so. Google burden of proof if you don't believe me.

As for Mr Crow (who has been blamed for everything from drivers strikes to solar flares :p) he looks after the interests of his union members. He's upfront and honest which is more than can be said for many of the DfT's bosses. This is without going into anti-union bias in the media which is obvious to all but the hardened right wingers
 

Wath Yard

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Or the money goes directly into the pockets of TOC management. That's how private companies work, to maximize profit for shareholders. It's not inherently bad by any stretch but to argue that losing staff would cause fares to drop is fallacious.

You still haven't substantiated that there are too many staff.

So many things wrong with this.

Firstly I assume you mean the pockets of the company's shareholders not managers.

Secondly, most current frachises have cap and collar in operation, therefore if profits increased significantly the DfT would get a decent slice.

Thirdly, fares wouldn't go down but reducing costs, however it is done, would reduce fare increases in the future back to either RPI+1% or perhaps RPI.
 

spacehopper

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Well if my train was diverted due to "problems"- I'm sure I would've been informed by a) the driver, b) control. Not at least because if we we're being diverted I would have to "sign" the road.

Be very surprised if a pax came up to me and told me we had been diverted!

Can't say for VT but being "stuck in a little office (reading the paper)" with a limited view out of a small pendolino window possibly during darkness I'm sure I could easily be thrown off where I was.

Sat in the back cab (being lazy and reading the paper) gives a far better view. Such a good view in fact that I've spotted a broken rail or a hazard to approaching trains. Got speedo, brake gauge, NRN, PA, Cab to Cab, TMS, PIS everything I need. See where am I as I can see which signal boxes we've passed- so I know who to contact and who controls section of the line. Even see those wonderful mileposts.

Why do I still have route knowledge when a mobile phone and GPS can easily replace me? I'm sure it's some massive Bob Crow(E) conspiracy. A mobile phone will know where I am but not how I am. Is it a location that has specific requirements in sectional appendix, does it know the best location to carry out a horizontal or vertical evacuation.

As for reducing costs- how about nationalising the railway- every penny goes back to the Railway. What about all money wasted paying for legions of delay attribution clerks, lawyers, accountants, paint suppliers, franchise bid teams. Waste of spending £250,000 a year leasing a Class 142 when it was bought and paid for by British taxpayer many years ago.
 

Jock

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You're making the statement guards are unnecessary. You need to supply proof this is so. Google burden of proof if you don't believe me.

As for Mr Crow (who has been blamed for everything from drivers strikes to solar flares :p) he looks after the interests of his union members. He's upfront and honest which is more than can be said for many of the DfT's bosses. This is without going into anti-union bias in the media which is obvious to all but the hardened right wingers

A lot of people forget that Bob Crow actually works to the instruction of the unions executive committee. He doesn't make the decisions, they do.

It would appear that embers25 has an axe to grind here I don't know what it is though as I fail to understand the argument he's using, owing to the constant contradictions and diversionary tactics.

Why turn this thread into another anti union, anti RMT and anti Bob Crow thread when all the OP did was ask a simple enough question?

Oh... Its raining outside, let's blame Bob Crow

 

313103

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Whilst I agree vending machines on trains does seem to be a good idea the idea that the guards job is "highly skilled" is a bit of a stretch! On most days all they do is open/close doors and check tickets and that's on lines where they still have to open the doors. Most trains even have auto-announcements now. Actually most don't even check tickets now. On all my recent Pendolino trips up to Carlisle and beyond apart from the doors the guard has either sat in his "office" the whole trip reading the paper or chatted with the shop staff who also spend most of their trip sitting down chatting in the coach. Clearly making sure his newspaper doesn't get stolen is very safety critical. All over the world including the UK trains run as driver only without any issue it's just RMT scaremongering as usual to preserve the pretty much unnecessary role of their members. The significant amount of money that could be saved from abolishing guards through OPO could be passed on in fares reductions to passengers. I know guards claim these savings would be offset by loss in fares revenue which may have been true until guards on many routes stopped checking/issuing tickets anyway. I realise in the event of an accident a guard should be able to assist passengers but OPO trains manage. They also don't usually come running when there are issues with yobs on trains so they certainly aren't there for passenger safety. You may argue dealing with yobs isn't their job but that is all part of train safety so it is their job. A guard is equivalent to a airline steward/ess and yet we expect them to serve us and you don't hear people saying they are risking the planes safety by serving us drinks. Steward/esses also deal with behaviour issues on planes too unlike guards. Now there is a safety critical, passenger safety focussed job guards should try to emulate but then again their paper is way too interesting to tear themselves away from. The same also applies to driverless trains which we accept on Docklands but not on the tube due again to the scaremongering unions.

Now if you really belive that getting rid of about 7 to 8000 posts will reduce your train fare, you go along and belive that. I mean they said the same thing about Buses didnt they? Look what happened Bus fares in this country are at a all time high.

Enlighten me with regard Guards being like airline stewards, pray also please tell me where Guards do not have to deal with behaviour issues.

I think you are certainly anti union, possibly jealous that your not in the rail industry yourself so belittle everyone that is including me!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A lot of people forget that Bob Crow actually works to the instruction of the unions executive committee. He doesn't make the decisions, they do.

It would appear that embers25 has an axe to grind here I don't know what it is though as I fail to understand the argument he's using, owing to the constant contradictions and diversionary tactics.

Why turn this thread into another anti union, anti RMT and anti Bob Crow thread when all the OP did was ask a simple enough question?

Oh... Its raining outside, let's blame Bob Crow


Jock dont rise to it, anyone or group that stands up for itself rather then allowing themselves to get shafted always gets it on here, i have yet to see a postive comment by a non railway person with regards Bob Crow and RMT, you are right on thing though............. They do have a axe to grind. Perhaps the answer to their grinding axe is that people like Crow and unions like RMT want to keep people in employment and look after said people already in employment. Look at the current unemployment figures.
 

GadgetMan

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just that a quick mobile call to 999 and even if they only said which train they were on the location could easily be ascertained.


You would hope so but the reality is very different. Everytime I have had to dial 999 to get an ambulance to meet a train at a station, the name of the station has not been enough for the operator. They have always wasted precious time asking for a postcode/road name which I wouldn't know off the top of my head. Now some of you may think this is an exaggeration. But I'm sure many of my colleagues will have experienced the same and will confirm. Which is why all requests for paramedics however urgent I now put through our control.

Now if they can't locate a railway station after being given it's full name and county, then I wouldn't hold my breath in them tracking down a train in the middle of nowhere from brief location descriptions from frantic passengers.


As to trains being diverted. The driver MUST stop the train and question the route if it is not what they are booked over. He will also speak to the guard to ensure they both sign the route. I'm afraid I don't believe anyone who says the guard wasn't aware of the train being diverted.
 

Michael.Y

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OK - as a steward, let me explain what we can do for a customer that a vending machine cannot.

1) Offer sterling change for a €20 note to Irish Ferry passengers who haven't had a chance to visit the BdC in their rush to get on the train.

2) Make the tea or coffee exactly how they like it - six sugars madam? No problem. Only a weak coffee? No problem I'll put extra water in.

3) Have a temperature controlled environment that does not use electricity to keep food and drink cool (dry ice)

4) Take orders for special requests. Approaching a shorebase with a hungry family who want a pile of sandwiches, crisps and coke? No problem.

5) - and this is the most important one - Deliver the food/drink AT THEIR SEAT. No getting up and wandering around a train, leaving your stuff/seat behind for anyone to nick. No carrying hot liquid through carriages with a train bouncing around on badly maintained track. No chance of pressing the wrong button and getting coffee instead of tea.

6) We at ATW are also safety trained in evac and fire procedure, as well as carrying out more rudimentary duties like timetable information and relaying information to passengers such as delays and where to change etc. Try getting that from just talking to a machine.

I think we're needed anyway! (Well I would, wouldn't I?)
 

reb0118

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A train service in the 21st century with a union from the 18th century.

Correct me if I'm wrong but was it not illegal to be a member of a union in the 18th century?

Were people not imprisoned & transported for the simple belief in trying to better their lot?

What next - bring back the poorhouse?

I despair at some people <(
 

EltonRoad

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You would hope so but the reality is very different. Everytime I have had to dial 999 to get an ambulance to meet a train at a station, the name of the station has not been enough for the operator. They have always wasted precious time asking for a postcode/road name which I wouldn't know off the top of my head. Now some of you may think this is an exaggeration. But I'm sure many of my colleagues will have experienced the same and will confirm. Which is why all requests for paramedics however urgent I now put through our control.

Now if they can't locate a railway station after being given it's full name and county, then I wouldn't hold my breath in them tracking down a train in the middle of nowhere from brief location descriptions from frantic passengers.

Surely that's just the call centre trying to get as much information from you as possible, whilst you're on the phone. They probably interrogate all callers in the same way. It doesn't mean that they can't locate a railway station, nor that you "should" know the exact address. It may be helpful, though, if you did happen to know it.

No doubt if you said "Preston Bus Station" or similar, they'd want to know as much as possible about the location. After all people's ideas of where they think they are may not always be accurate. Then that really would be wasting precious time, sending the ambulance to the wrong place.
 

WestCoast

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OK - as a steward, let me explain what we can do for a customer that a vending machine cannot.

1) Offer sterling change for a €20 note to Irish Ferry passengers who haven't had a chance to visit the BdC in their rush to get on the train.

2) Make the tea or coffee exactly how they like it - six sugars madam? No problem. Only a weak coffee? No problem I'll put extra water in.

3) Have a temperature controlled environment that does not use electricity to keep food and drink cool (dry ice)

4) Take orders for special requests. Approaching a shorebase with a hungry family who want a pile of sandwiches, crisps and coke? No problem.

5) - and this is the most important one - Deliver the food/drink AT THEIR SEAT. No getting up and wandering around a train, leaving your stuff/seat behind for anyone to nick. No carrying hot liquid through carriages with a train bouncing around on badly maintained track. No chance of pressing the wrong button and getting coffee instead of tea.

6) We at ATW are also safety trained in evac and fire procedure, as well as carrying out more rudimentary duties like timetable information and relaying information to passengers such as delays and where to change etc. Try getting that from just talking to a machine.

I think we're needed anyway! (Well I would, wouldn't I?)

I think a trolley probably suits ATW's needs well. However, I'd still much rather have a buffet/shop AND vending machine on a rammed InterCity train, trolleys just seem to 'get in the way' blocking aisles on busy trains full of luggage and one trolley cannot be in two sets at the same time on stock without gangways (like Voyagers). On rammed trains, they inevitably end up stationed at one end of the train which negates any benefits of an "at seat service". Trolleys seem to have a habit of not being there when needed on certain TOCs as well, which is why I tend to prefer shops/buffets as more permanent catering facilities on core long-distance services.

Ever tried pushing a trolley on a double decker train up and down steps? That's one of the main reasons for vending machines on continental European InterRegional services.
 

Pumbaa

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As to trains being diverted. The driver MUST stop the train and question the route if it is not what they are booked over. He will also speak to the guard to ensure they both sign the route. I'm afraid I don't believe anyone who says the guard wasn't aware of the train being diverted.

Certainly not for at least 3 'intercity' TOCs. It is now a policy of if a driver is given a route, as long as he signs it, he takes it with no questions asked. VT got arsey when drivers were requesting confirmation for non-booked routes in the Glasgow area that the box was chucking at them to keep the job running smoothly, cost them a few minutes. :roll:
 

spacehopper

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Certainly not for at least 3 'intercity' TOCs. It is now a policy of if a driver is given a route, as long as he signs it, he takes it with no questions asked. VT got arsey when drivers were requesting confirmation for non-booked routes in the Glasgow area that the box was chucking at them to keep the job running smoothly, cost them a few minutes. :roll:

I would have thought that this would be on one of those jobs where train can run via a diversionary route purely for route retention purposes.

We used to have a job like this where we were booked to go via diversionary route but the bobby would always route you mainline. Until someone higher up who didn't like you getting a flyer kicked off. Didn't last long as you'd be surprised how many drivers didn't sign the road or needed a refresher.

Strange policy for those driving pointy noses- when a unit man doesn't query and take a wrong route they are then classed as having a SOL incident.
 

Michael.Y

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I think a trolley probably suits ATW's needs well. However, I'd still much rather have a buffet/shop AND vending machine on a rammed InterCity train, trolleys just seem to 'get in the way' blocking aisles on busy trains full of luggage and one trolley cannot be in two sets at the same time on stock without gangways (like Voyagers). On rammed trains, they inevitably end up stationed at one end of the train which negates any benefits of an "at seat service". Trolleys seem to have a habit of not being there when needed on certain TOCs as well, which is why I tend to prefer shops/buffets as more permanent catering facilities on core long-distance services.

If a train is rammed, are you more or less inclined to barge down the aisle full of bodies to get to a vending machine and then barge back down carrying an (uncovered) cup of hot liquid? Either way, you won't get the drink; but at least when there IS a gap, I can "go for it" and serve a whole load of people in one go rather than have 70 people all run for the vending machine, queuing up, causing an extra blockage. At least the trolley is moveable and there's plenty of space (usually) for me to park up in one of the vestibules so I'm not an obstruction (on a 175, I can fit very nicely into the connecting corridor and still leave room for movement).

Our timetables are marked with services which have trolley facilities, and as such we at ASC are legally obliged to cover them as part of our contract. If the timetable doesn't have a trolley marked on it, it won't be covered.

I've worked double sets before now - the 175s also don't have corridors - it usually involves a set change at Hereford and/or other stations where time allows so that I can serve all carriages. It's very do-able, especially with on-train ramps.

Ever tried pushing a trolley on a double decker train up and down steps? That's one of the main reasons for vending machines on continental European InterRegional services.

Can't imagine it's any worse than the connecting corridors on 150s and 158s <D - you need a Dalek levitation pad for those!
 

embers25

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As to trains being diverted. The driver MUST stop the train and question the route if it is not what they are booked over. He will also speak to the guard to ensure they both sign the route. I'm afraid I don't believe anyone who says the guard wasn't aware of the train being diverted.

Fatality occurred at Atherstone PRIOR to us stopping at MKC. Platform staff tell passengers trains will be diverted via West Midlands. We indeed are diverted and do not stop again after MKC until Birmingham International where we caught up another train. Passengers ask guard on approach to Coventry what time will we arrive in Preston. Guard who has been sat in office says we are on time still. Passengers say but MKC said we were being diverted and would be delayed. Oh I know nothing about that says the guard. I stand up and tell the guard both where we are and also why we are being diverted. He says he will have to check as he hadn't been told of the diversion. He returns and agrees we have been diverted and will be delayed approx 40 mins. On passing Aston another passenger asks him where we are and how late we will be and he says he doesn't know the route so he will only be able to update her once we reach Stafford. I remember this clearly as I thought it astounding that a Virgin guard didn't know the West Midlands diversion given they go that way so regularly. I realise this is only one example but it does highlight my point. Ironically in this case it was the shop crew who seemed to know the diversion route better than the guard as they at least informed the passenger of the route they usually go when diverted.
I love how everyone is so critical of my argument and yet no-one has any statistical evidence of trains being more dangerous without guards. You can rubbish my argument but cannot prove your own other than "its common sense". No it's not common sense its what you'd have us believe is common sense as scaremongering protects unnecessary jobs. If anything I'd rather have a trolley person than a guard as at least in general they know the meaning of hard work and are heavily underpaid compared to ridiculously overpaid guards. They also these days tend to deal with more passenger queries than guards in my experience because they at least walk through the train periodically(or in the case of SWT Exeter trains very often)
 
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