Should the Wales and Borders franchise be branded differently e.g. 'Wales & Borders'?

[sw1ller]

I've asked nicely for the brand guidelines already. If I get them I'll let you know what the font is.

I think it’s called Wales Cymru Sans

http://www.smorgasbordstudio.com/projects/cymru-wales-sans/

Or even the other way round now I’ve read it properly!!!!

 

[krus_aragon]

I don’t need your advice.

In which case I shall avoid offering it in the future.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

I'm looking forward to someone FOIing the brand guidelines, not so much for the interminable "Wales & Borders" debate, but more to find out what font that is. It looks almost exactly like Avenir but I swear there's a bit more of a flare at the bottom of the lower-case a...

The font in the picture is Cymru Sans or Wales Sans. The one used in TfW Rail’s logo with the ticks in some of the letters in Cymru Sans or Wales Sans Transport.

Edit: didn’t see that that was already answered, ignore this message then.

 

[transmanche]

Or you mean unable to see a problem because it only creates an issue for others not an issue for you.

No, it really is a non-issue.

I'm sure that people tweet Merseytravel when they really need to contact Merseyail and vice versa. But the sky does not fall in.

I'm certain that people tweet Merseyail when they really need to contact Northern, due to the dual-use of the Merseyail brand. But nobody's died.

And I know that sometimes people message the wrong Twitter account from the myriad of TfL's Twitter accounts for its various sub-brands and services. And guess what? People somehow manage to cope.

I don't know why you keep banging on about something that is not a problem. Quite frankly, it's making you look a bit daft...

 

[pemma]

No, it really is a non-issue.

I'm sure that people tweet Merseytravel when they really need to contact Merseyail and vice versa. But the sky does not fall in.

I'm certain that people tweet Merseyail when they really need to contact Northern, due to the dual-use of the Merseyail brand. But nobody's died.

And I know that sometimes people message the wrong Twitter account from the myriad of TfL's Twitter accounts for its various sub-brands and services. And guess what? People somehow manage to cope.

I don't know why you keep banging on about something that is not a problem. Quite frankly, it's making you look a bit daft...

Like I said in an earlier post I don't think station signs should be branded if multiple operators serve them. Given the dual use of the Merseyrail brand on trains (opposed to stations), which ended over 10 years ago, did cause confusion and passengers didn't tweet operators when it was in existence I think it's fair to say TfW didn't do their research.

Using your logic the ticketing system should be left alone as most passengers manage to buy the right ticket so it's not an issue if some get confused. If social media is used effectively then someone on a delayed overcrowded train can get advice about onward journey options even if the guard can't get through but if they tweet the wrong account all they have when they reach their interchange station is a tweet back saying they tweeted the wrong account and their question has been past on from TfW to TfW Rail. Given the high frequency of TfL services compared to TfW ones I'm not sure it's fair to compare the two as responses being delayed for TfL might mean someone arrives 5 minutes later than they needed to, with TfW it could be well over an hour.

 

[Pete_uk]

I think of it like this, the LMS having a route down into Bristol didn't make much geographic sense, but the way the railways were grouped it did.

Services to Worcester being part of Network South East didn't make much geographical sense, but opperationly it did.

Having TfW services and station managed in England may not much sense to some but there you go.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

The

I think of it like this, the LMS having a route down into Bristol didn't make much geographic sense, but the way the railways were grouped it did.

Services to Worcester being part of Network South East didn't make much geographical sense, but opperationly it did.

Having TfW services and station managed in England may not much sense to some but there you go.

The LMS had a considerable mileage in Wales; North, South and Mid. Even the LNER had a presence in Wales!

 

[Gwenllian2001]

The LNWR erected some signs in Welsh only as did the Rhymney Railway. I am unaware that they caused any inconvenience to anyone. They could still be seen in the late Twentieth Century.

 

[transmanche]

Like I said in an earlier post I don't think station signs should be branded if multiple operators serve them.

Gosh, I wonder how the poor people of Wimbledon Park (and other stations the Wimbledon branch) managed? For decades it was branded as a Southern Railway/British Rail station despite only being served by London Underground trains. But somehow people managed to struggle on through the adversity...

Given the dual use of the Merseyrail brand on trains (opposed to stations), which ended over 10 years ago, did cause confusion and passengers didn't tweet operators when it was in existence I think it's fair to say TfW didn't do their research.

Pure speculation on your part.

Using your logic the ticketing system should be left alone as most passengers manage to buy the right ticket so it's not an issue if some get confused.

Ah, I see you've been reduced to strawman arguments now...

 

[pemma]

Gosh, I wonder how the poor people of Wimbledon Park (and other stations the Wimbledon branch) managed? For decades it was branded as a Southern Railway/British Rail station despite only being served by London Underground trains. But somehow people managed to struggle on through the adversity...

View attachment 54049

Pure speculation on your part.

Ah, I see you've been reduced to strawman arguments now...

You seem more bothered about arguing that I'm wrong than looking at an argument from both sides, that's why I made the comparison with ticketing.

I also didn't say passengers couldn't manage. Do you honestly think it's sensible for a station to be branded by a TOC which doesn't even serve the station? If not why are bothered arguing the point, is it you just want to object to anything I say?

 

[transmanche]

You seem more bothered about arguing that I'm wrong than looking at an argument from both sides, that's why I made the comparison with ticketing.

A ridiculous comparison.

Do you honestly think it's sensible for a station to be branded by a TOC which doesn't even serve the station? If not why are bothered arguing the point, is it you just want to object to anything I say?

It's an over-the-top example to show how ridiculous your 'argument' is. Amongst other things, you've complained about the use of the Welsh-language when and .wales domain names. In fact, I've lost track of all the things you've complained about.

And you don't even have the facts about what you are complaining about. You have no idea what brand identity will be used on TfW's stations in England when they are fully re-branded. It's quite likely it'll be Wales & Borders sub-brand, (as noted by @Doctor Fegg back in post #106, TfW have registered it with the IPO as one of their sub-brands) so I really think you are getting your knickers in a twist over nothing...

 

[Envoy]

For those of you interested in the railways in Wales, the TV series ‘Walking Britain’s Lost Railways’ will be about the Ruabon to Barmouth line - CH5 9pm on Friday 26 October, 2018.

 

[sw1ller]

I notice from this thread...

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/west-midlands-30-year-rail-strategy-2018-47.172448/

The maps on post #1 don’t show a direct link between Crewe & Shrewsbury. It makes better operational sense for TfW to keep it but I think it’ll be forgotten about if it stays under them. I do t know if I’m reading too much into it at this early stage though.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I notice from this thread...

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/west-midlands-30-year-rail-strategy-2018-47.172448/

The maps on post #1 don’t show a direct link between Crewe & Shrewsbury. It makes better operational sense for TfW to keep it but I think it’ll be forgotten about if it stays under them. I do t know if I’m reading too much into it at this early stage though.

Lets be clear on this (again) Crewe to Shrewsbury local service is in the Wales and Borders Franchise let this year until 2033, it will be operated by ex GA Class 170's. The 30 year West Midlands Rail Strategy does not include Crewe to Shrewsbury.

 

[krus_aragon]

But, if I interpret sw1ller correctly, he's concerned that Crewe to Shrewsbury will be forgotten about under TfW as a result.

 

[Gareth Marston]

But, if I interpret sw1ller correctly, he's concerned that Crewe to Shrewsbury will be forgotten about under TfW as a result.

Forgotten by whom?
Nantwich and Whitchurch will have 5 car CAF Civity services with 1st class sections and the stoppers will be 2 car 170's instead of 153's.
They'll also be a Community Rail Officer.

 

[sw1ller]

Forgotten by whom?
Nantwich and Whitchurch will have 5 car CAF Civity services with 1st class sections and the stoppers will be 2 car 170's instead of 153's.
They'll also be a Community Rail Officer.

I didn’t realise the 170s were carrying on past Shrewsbury if I’m honest. The service level along the line needs vastly improving for most of the stations on the stopper. I can’t imagine a 5 car first class service stopping too often at the likes of Wem. So I did fear it would get lost as a route under TfW. Given how important other routes seem to be.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I didn’t realise the 170s were carrying on past Shrewsbury if I’m honest. The service level along the line needs vastly improving for most of the stations on the stopper. I can’t imagine a 5 car first class service stopping too often at the likes of Wem. So I did fear it would get lost as a route under TfW. Given how important other routes seem to be.

The Stopping Pattern for the Marches has yet to be announce but looking at the specified commitments for speeding up Manchester & Holyhead services from Cardiff its clear that Church Stretton & Craven Arms will be served by HOW (6 a day) and Liverpool to Cardiff trains ( every 2 hrs) the Manchesters & Holyheads wont stop at them any more. It will leave some scope for extra stops north of Shrewsbury.

 

[craigybagel]

I didn’t realise the 170s were carrying on past Shrewsbury if I’m honest. The service level along the line needs vastly improving for most of the stations on the stopper. I can’t imagine a 5 car first class service stopping too often at the likes of Wem. So I did fear it would get lost as a route under TfW. Given how important other routes seem to be.

It's been buried away alright, but I asked about it at the employee roadshow. I was shown a map showing unit allocations which confirmed 170s will be used on the Crewe - Shrewsbury local.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Are there any plans to increase the Crewe - Shrewsbury shuttle to hourly and remove stops from the Manchester services or is there not demand for it?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Are there any plans to increase the Crewe - Shrewsbury shuttle to hourly and remove stops from the Manchester services or is there not demand for it?

No but we're going off thread now.

 

[Envoy]

The Stopping Pattern for the Marches has yet to be announce but looking at the specified commitments for speeding up Manchester & Holyhead services from Cardiff its clear that Church Stretton & Craven Arms will be served by HOW (6 a day) and Liverpool to Cardiff trains ( every 2 hrs) the Manchesters & Holyheads wont stop at them any more. It will leave some scope for extra stops north of Shrewsbury.

What also matters concerning stops at Craven Arms is that the last northbound Marches train calls at CA prior to the next HoW train heading to Swansea. In the reverse direction, a southbound Marchers train should call at CA after a HoW has come up off the Marches to head north.

 

[sw1ller]

It's been buried away alright, but I asked about it at the employee roadshow. I was shown a map showing unit allocations which confirmed 170s will be used on the Crewe - Shrewsbury local.

Thanks for that. I’ve not seen anything at all but haven’t looked as hard as some.



Sorry for going off thread but the other one was closed so it’s hard to know where to post now.

 

[PHILIPE]

Thanks for that. I’ve not seen anything at all but haven’t looked as hard as some.



Sorry for going off thread but the other one was closed so it’s hard to know where to post now.

The thread is still open:-

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/keolis-amey-wales-future-rolling-stock.164954

 

[SeanM1997]

Forgotten by whom?
Nantwich and Whitchurch will have 5 car CAF Civity services with 1st class sections and the stoppers will be 2 car 170's instead of 153's.
They'll also be a Community Rail Officer.

Where does it say that the Manchester Piccadilly-South Wales services will be formed of 5 car CAF Civity services? I thought this was new trains of either 2 or 3 carriages, with first class compartments but not joined together.

Also, got a source about the 170s on Crewe-Shrewsbury and will this be an extension of the Heart of Wales line services?

 

[craigybagel]

Where does it say that the Manchester Piccadilly-South Wales services will be formed of 5 car CAF Civity services? I thought this was new trains of either 2 or 3 carriages, with first class compartments but not joined together.

Also, got a source about the 170s on Crewe-Shrewsbury and will this be an extension of the Heart of Wales line services?

It's all been posted in various internal sources and appeared on Twitter as well. The CAFs will operate in multiple, with units with 1st class attaching to standard class only units at Swansea (little need for either 5 cars or first class West of Swansea).

No confirmation yet as to whether or not the HOWL and Crewe - Shrewsbury local will remain interworked but they will both be using 170s

 

[SeanM1997]

It's all been posted in various internal sources and appeared on Twitter as well. The CAFs will operate in multiple, with units with 1st class attaching to standard class only units at Swansea (little need for either 5 cars or first class West of Swansea).

No confirmation yet as to whether or not the HOWL and Crewe - Shrewsbury local will remain interworked but they will both be using 170s

When is it likely new trains will be on the line - will it be 2024 or sooner?

 

[craigybagel]

When is it likely new trains will be on the line - will it be 2024 or sooner?

CAFs arrive in 2022, but the units with 1st class aren't until 2024

 

[krus_aragon]

Where does it say that the Manchester Piccadilly-South Wales services will be formed of 5 car CAF Civity services? I thought this was new trains of either 2 or 3 carriages, with first class compartments but not joined together.

Several of us ran the numbers back in June. As the First Class Manchester-Swansea service isn't due to start until 2024, when the final 7 2-car units are to be delivered, it seems reasonable that these will have the first class accomodation. As First Class won't be provided beyond Swansea, but services will still continue to Carmarthen and Milford, those carriages must be detached. (The TfW Civitys will have unit-end gangways.)

See page 14 onwards of this thread for the conversation at the time.

 

[PHILIPE]

Several of us ran the numbers back in June. As the First Class Manchester-Swansea service isn't due to start until 2024, when the final 7 2-car units are to be delivered, it seems reasonable that these will have the first class accomodation. As First Class won't be provided beyond Swansea, but services will still continue to Carmarthen and Milford, those carriages must be detached. (The TfW Civitys will have unit-end gangways.)

See page 14 onwards of this thread for the conversation at the time.

Thanks for your comment "See Page 14 onwards etc" to try and get all the Future Traction items back into the correct thread. Much of the recent dialogue has had nothing to do with branding. Hope nobody (including Mods) minds me posting this but it does confuse things when people are posting on this thread when there is already a dedicated thread in situ.