Should the young shield?

[PaulMc7]

Been out quite a lot in the last 2 weeks after quite a while with not going out and honestly from what I've seen it's not teens or the 20s like myself(26 now) ignoring social distancing the most. There's a lot of older people doing it and it's got worse since masks came in. There are some younger folk doing it but with how common mental health issues are among the young these days don't make it worse than it already is.

 

[Reliablebeam]

Been out quite a lot in the last 2 weeks after quite a while with not going out and honestly from what I've seen it's not teens or the 20s like myself(26 now) ignoring social distancing the most. There's a lot of older people doing it and it's got worse since masks came in. There are some younger folk doing it but with how common mental health issues are among the young these days don't make it worse than it already is.

From my observations round my way, the older generation are cheerfully ignoring social distancing and in some cases look mortally offended if you try and give them a bit of a berth. The worst social distancing and mask zealots are the 25-45's in my work and social circles! The over 50's at work who are 'worried' about the corona are the ones you suspect are using it as an excuse to shirk, whilst those who might actually need to be careful are whinging they want to be back.

Confrontational policing of social distancing is not going to work and given the mood in this country (remember BLM protests??) would turn nasty, very very quickly. In fact I would bet good money that concerns over this kind of thing probably explain why our lockdown wasn't enforced that vigorously.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Going to be difficult to help them in a trashed economy though, isn't it!

It is. But I think we are going to be able to help them in some way. Just making accommodation for their preferences would help - for instance, there are going to be as many kids who will have had their bacon saved by the cancellation of GCSEs and A-levels as there will be who lose out (some kids who are quite intelligent are just rubbish at exams) - but we can work around that by allowing those who want to to defer and maybe take them again the following year, for instance.

In the end young people are generally very resilient, we just need to make sure they are given the opportunity to deal with issues.

And the government would fall within a month.

Would it?

And you still claim you don't have authoritarian tendencies?

I just, in these exceptional situations, want people to stick to the rules, because that will save us needing even more rules!

I'm no fan of the typical British "over-legislate then under-enforce" approach, because the problem with it is that those of us who prefer generally to comply with the law are disadvantaged by that situation. I would for instance rather the motorway speed limit in dry conditions was 80mph but that all the cameras were set at 81mph than the idea that the limit is nominally 70 but the cameras are likely to be set no lower than 76 and probably even higher.

I'm enjoying the quaint olde-worlde notion that a 20-something of today has any actual ability to pay £500 on the spot.

"On the spot fine" is usually a misnomer; typically they're issued on the spot but mostly don't have to be paid on the spot.

 

[PaulMc7]

From my observations round my way, the older generation are cheerfully ignoring social distancing and in some cases look mortally offended if you try and give them a bit of a berth. The worst social distancing and mask zealots are the 25-45's in my work and social circles! The over 50's at work who are 'worried' about the corona are the ones you suspect are using it as an excuse to shirk, whilst those who might actually need to be careful are whinging they want to be back.

Confrontational policing of social distancing is not going to work and given the mood in this country (remember BLM protests??) would turn nasty, very very quickly. In fact I would bet good money that concerns over this kind of thing probably explain why our lockdown wasn't enforced that vigorously.

Yeah the nastiness that's emerged lately is definitely a massive problem. Even pointing out the ableist parts of this mess like face coverings and public toilets being problematic get met with all sorts of groans and guilt tripping. Also telling people the reason lockdown was never going to work properly is due to a major lack of police never goes down well even though it's true

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah the nastiness that's emerged lately is definitely a massive problem. Even pointing out the ableist parts of this mess like face coverings and public toilets being problematic get met with all sorts of groans and guilt tripping. Also telling people the reason lockdown was never going to work properly is due to a major lack of police never goes down well even though it's true

As I'd like to reply in a way relevant to the use of masks I've replied to this in the mask thread here:

UK face coverings discussion

It's absolutely a Byelaw offence, and it grates that staff walk past it ignoring it rather than saying something about it being unacceptable, even in the quiet coach. Most guards I’m sure would remind people of the quiet coach rules. If someone is so drunk that they pose a safety risk then...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Cowley]

Well I’ve clicked on ‘No’ being the father/stepfather of four teenagers currently.
They’ve followed the rules extremely well through all of this and even now they’re doing their best to keep to small groups that they always stay with, but they’ll never get this time back and I’d rather take a (very very) slightly higher risk for us than them miss out on what should be one of the best times of their lives that we both got to experience with no restrictions like they’re dealing with.

They’ve had so many things planned out this year that they’ve missed out on now and it’ll probably be the same next year (at least), so if they’ve managed to get some semblance of their social life back recently then I don’t want that to be stopped.

 

[Richard Scott]

It is. But I think we are going to be able to help them in some way. Just making accommodation for their preferences would help - for instance, there are going to be as many kids who will have had their bacon saved by the cancellation of GCSEs and A-levels as there will be who lose out (some kids who are quite intelligent are just rubbish at exams) - but we can work around that by allowing those who want to to defer and maybe take them again the following year, for instance.

In the end young people are generally very resilient, we just need to make sure they are given the opportunity to deal with issues.



Would it?



I just, in these exceptional situations, want people to stick to the rules, because that will save us needing even more rules!

I'm no fan of the typical British "over-legislate then under-enforce" approach, because the problem with it is that those of us who prefer generally to comply with the law are disadvantaged by that situation. I would for instance rather the motorway speed limit in dry conditions was 80mph but that all the cameras were set at 81mph than the idea that the limit is nominally 70 but the cameras are likely to be set no lower than 76 and probably even higher.



"On the spot fine" is usually a misnomer; typically they're issued on the spot but mostly don't have to be paid on the spot.

Don't even go there on cancelled exams. Believe me there are many who will not achieve what they could have done as data is going to be based on what they've done, which in some cases isn't much. These individuals would have pulled it out if the bag in exams like many of us probably did. I'll just quote one 16 year old lad who was reasonably able, did ok in year 10exams, wasn't hardest worker although did ok and behaviour wasn't always the best but pleasant enough when he wanted to be and he just said 'what's the point'. Upon asking him to expand he said that he'd been in school 12 years and wasn't going to get the chance to prove himself so felt it was all a waste of time. I don't know how he feels as not been in that situation but he was obviously devastated. I felt really sorry for him and he's not alone. Doesn't matter how resilient he and his peers are, that's with him for life. Who now wants to tell him to man up and get on with it? Now he's down shall we kick him further by getting him to shield as seems people if his age find social distancing a little hard? Oh please do me a favour, they're damaged enough by this. We need everyone to support the youngsters not hit them with more problems.

 

[yorkie]

I don't know who this James Jordan person is, but whoever he is, it sounds like he isn't very clever. I'd be happy to have an argument with him but I doubt he'd be worth arguing with.

And you still claim you don't have authoritarian tendencies?

I agree this sounds very authoritarian; people just won't stand for it.

Been out quite a lot in the last 2 weeks after quite a while with not going out and honestly from what I've seen it's not teens or the 20s like myself(26 now) ignoring social distancing the most.

As for how viable social distancing is going forward (and let's not forget it only applies where possible and is not mandatory), if anyone wishes to discuss that, please use this thread How much longer will social distancing go on for in the UK?

 

[Scotrail12]

I don't know who this James Jordan person is, but whoever he is, it sounds like he isn't very clever. I'd be happy to have an argument with him but I doubt he'd be worth arguing with.

Former Strictly Come Dancing pro dancer
2-time Celebrity Big Brother star
Dancing on Ice winner
Celebrity Coach Trip runner up
Seems to often pop up in tabloids and occasionally on talk shows (usually ITV).

A long history of controversial opinions, very anti climate change (once tweeted to save plastic straws).

 

[Crossover]

1 yes vote so far....hmmmmm

I personally vote ‘no’ - I’d class myself in the ‘young’ category and after 4 months being confined to a small area (but able to venture out to some extent) the last thing I would be after now is even tighter restrictions than we’ve been subjected to already

 

[Crossover]

Former Strictly Come Dancing pro dancer
2-time Celebrity Big Brother star
Dancing on Ice winner
Celebrity Coach Trip runner up
Seems to often pop up in tabloids and occasionally on talk shows (usually ITV).

A long history of controversial opinions, very anti climate change (once tweeted to save plastic straws).

I suppose all we need now is Katie Hopkins to jump on it too

 

[Scotrail12]

I suppose all we need now is Katie Hopkins to jump on it too

Add in another TV appearance - he was a guest panelist on her very short lived talk show a few years back.

 

[DelayRepay]

I don't have kids but when I look around at the teenagers on the street, their compliance is no worse than other generations. Why single them out?

Is there evidence that teenagers are significantly contributing to the spread of the virus? Presumably data from Test and Trace shows how the virus is making its way through society. What we need to do is target any further restrictions to areas/groups/settings where there are high transmission rates, not just introduce additional restrictions because someone on Twitter things it's a good idea.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't matter how resilient he and his peers are, that's with him for life.

But that is factually not true.

To use my Dad as an example, and I know he's a "boomer" so a bit more advantaged than your average Gen Z, but he's still a good example. He left school with nothing but a CSE in Woodwork at a low grade (I don't know exactly what), and on realising this wasn't very useful he took exams at night school, got qualified, and ended up a bank manager for the TSB, got made redundant with a nice big payoff, did a less stressful job for 10 years and retired at 55. Now I doubt any Gen Z will be doing the latter, but the point is that you can get GCSEs and A-levels other than at age 16/18, and you can go to uni (if that's what you want to do) at an age other than 18. Indeed, some employers will consider this an upside as it proves the ability to plan and execute an effective comeback from a "down".

Getting poor GCSE results is not the end of the world. It might feel like it is, but the best thing for those kids now (and I do think that there will be as many who will have done well about it as they're rubbish at exams) is to give them the support to get back on their feet and to learn the "life lesson" that just leaving stuff to the last minute on hope, a wing and a prayer isn't the right way to go about things and that yes, you actually do need to work hard all the time.

 

[A Challenge]

To use my Dad as an example, and I know he's a "boomer" so a bit more advantaged than your average Gen Z, but he's still a good example. He left school with nothing but a CSE in Woodwork at a low grade (I don't know exactly what), and on realising this wasn't very useful he took exams at night school, got qualified, and ended up a bank manager for the TSB, got made redundant with a nice big payoff, did a less stressful job for 10 years and retired at 55.

Getting poor GCSE results is not the end of the world. It might feel like it is, but the best thing for those kids now (and I do think that there will be as many who will have done well about it as they're rubbish at exams) is to give them the support to get back on their feet and to learn the "life lesson" that just leaving stuff to the last minute on hope, a wing and a prayer isn't the right way to go about things.

It's one thing to do that in a world where the jobs exist, but in the coming years there has been predicted mass-unemployment because of the economic crash, you will need top grades to get any job, especially with no experience (probably not even the traditional starting out jobs). Doing better on your final exams than the mocks is normal, but the problem is that every different student does a different amount better - and some students, understandably, take the view that doing mocks is pointless because they aren't the real exams - which might not be a brilliant way of doing things but it has never mattered before (as long as the school/college still let you take the exam). There is no way the government can get these results to be fair, as the only way to get fair results in a written exam A Level/GCSE is to take the exam, and reinstating the exams would be unfair now they have been cancelled. Anyway, we'll see on Thursday this week and next week.

 

[Bletchleyite]

einstating the exams would be unfair now they have been cancelled

The third "fair" option is to allow the young person to choose to retake in the next cycle if they are unhappy with any particular grade and "take a year out" in the meantime.

 

[duncanp]

I don't think anyone should be asked to shield simply on the basis of their age.

I am 57, and if I had received a shielding letter telling me to stay indoors 24 hours a day for an indeterminate period, I would have thrown it in the bin, or kept it in the bathroom in case there is a second shortage of toilet paper.

Happily though, I see that the government has shelved this idea due to the hugh backlash it received, which kind of makes me think they deliberately leaked the idea just to see what the reaction would be.

 

[A Challenge]

The third "fair" option is to allow the young person to choose to retake in the next cycle if they are unhappy with any particular grade and "take a year out" in the meantime.

What a waste of a year - with the lack of jobs and travel available (the two things generally done in a gap year) it's hardly likely they're going to want to take a normal gap year, even if that was already their plan. Also, how are GCSE Students in particular going to retake if schools have lower than normal capacity as is likely come September? (colleges at least may not have these students starting, to allow their current ones to retake)

 

[AdamWW]

I don't think anyone should be asked to shield simply on the basis of their age.

I am 57, and if I had received a shielding letter telling me to stay indoors 24 hours a day for an indeterminate period, I would have thrown it in the bin, or kept it in the bathroom in case there is a second shortage of toilet paper.

Happily though, I see that the government has shelved this idea due to the hugh backlash it received, which kind of makes me think they deliberately leaked the idea just to see what the reaction would be.

There have been some headlines implying the government was thinking of asking everyone over 50 to shield. The stories themselves make it clear that there is actually no evidence of that. The concept they were supposedly considering was to assess everyone over 50 to decide if they should shield.

So if the media are now suggesting that the goverment has shelved the idea to shield all 50 year olds, I think they are not being very truthful.

 

[Richard Scott]

But that is factually not true.

To use my Dad as an example, and I know he's a "boomer" so a bit more advantaged than your average Gen Z, but he's still a good example. He left school with nothing but a CSE in Woodwork at a low grade (I don't know exactly what), and on realising this wasn't very useful he took exams at night school, got qualified, and ended up a bank manager for the TSB, got made redundant with a nice big payoff, did a less stressful job for 10 years and retired at 55. Now I doubt any Gen Z will be doing the latter, but the point is that you can get GCSEs and A-levels other than at age 16/18, and you can go to uni (if that's what you want to do) at an age other than 18. Indeed, some employers will consider this an upside as it proves the ability to plan and execute an effective comeback from a "down".

Getting poor GCSE results is not the end of the world. It might feel like it is, but the best thing for those kids now (and I do think that there will be as many who will have done well about it as they're rubbish at exams) is to give them the support to get back on their feet and to learn the "life lesson" that just leaving stuff to the last minute on hope, a wing and a prayer isn't the right way to go about things and that yes, you actually do need to work hard all the time.

Stop trying to justify your statement, of course it's with him for life. Why should he retake his exams, he may well go onto college or something else but that moment in time when he should have taken his GCSEs is gone.

 

[adc82140]

To answer the original question, no, the young shouldn't shield. James Jordan is an attention seeking ignorant rent a gob, along the lines of Katie Hopkins. His dance career must be faltering.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stop trying to justify your statement, of course it's with him for life. Why should he retake his exams, he may well go onto college or something else but that moment in time when he should have taken his GCSEs is gone.

Well, you've got a choice. You can spiral him into depression by telling him all that nonsense and that his life is over due to something that nobody even looks at[1] once you've got a job or A-levels (Maths and English aside, which you can easily get at night school and many people do), or you can give him a boost by helping him find a route forward that will allow his dreams and aspirations to remain intact, just delayed by 12 months or so (which is insignificant in what is likely to be an 80 to 100 year lifespan), or for him to find another route to them. Which is it to be?

If what you said is true, people like my Dad who utterly screwed up school would have been destined to live in a Council flat alone claiming benefits forever, rather than what actually happened which is that he took stock, took some actions and rebuilt it all and now enjoys a comfortable, early-retired life in a large 4 bedroom house in a nice area of Lancashire with a grown up family and (until COVID came along) several holidays a year. Not quite as posh as our Cheshire correspondent, and a Vauxhall Mokka rather than two Range Rovers, but definitely a good life.

A problem at GCSE level - any problem - is not going to destroy anyone's life unless they let it - it's so early on there's tons of time to fix it. As adults who have an influence over children, it's incumbent on us to help them find a way.

[1] Seriously - as long as you get whatever is the modern equivalent of a C or above in Maths and English, literally the only purpose of GCSEs is to get you to the next stage. It doesn't feel like it at the time, but if you're applying for jobs in your 30s with a degree and a few years' experience, literally nobody even cares about them.

 

[A Challenge]

(Maths and English aside, which you can easily get at night school and many people do)

But he shouldn't have to retake his GCSEs, he should already have his GCSEs - and GCSEs results affect your ability to get into not only college but university as well, as they are used by universities before you get your A Level results.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But he shouldn't have to retake his GCSEs, he should already have his GCSEs - and GCSEs results affect your ability to get into not only college but university as well, as they are used by universities before you get your A Level results.

But there's a global pandemic on, in case that had escaped your notice.

It is certainly an obstacle, but it's about as big an obstacle as the average 20mph-zone speed bump. They just need support to sort it out in the way that makes the most sense to them. That in itself is a hugely valuable life lesson - throughout your life bad stuff will happen from time to time, and the way to deal with it is to make a plan and move forward.

Hand-wringing simply does not help - it is actively negative as all it'll do is bring on depression. The decision has been made, and the exams were cancelled. The only thing worth considering is how that young person should best move forward, and there are a number of choices open to them depending on their own circumstances.

 

[AdamWW]

But there's a global pandemic on, in case that had escaped your notice.

It is certainly an obstacle, but it's about as big an obstacle as the average 20mph-zone speed bump. They just need support to sort it out in the way that makes the most sense to them. That in itself is a hugely valuable life lesson - throughout your life bad stuff will happen from time to time, and the way to deal with it is to make a plan and move forward.

Hand-wringing simply does not help - it is actively negative as all it'll do is bring on depression. The decision has been made, and the exams were cancelled. The only thing worth considering is how that young person should best move forward, and there are a number of choices open to them depending on their own circumstances.

There are going to be huge issues ahead, both over 'exam' results that will be given out this summer, and over exams in the upcoming school year and beyond given the disruption to education.

One result might be less reliance on exam results as an indicator of someone's ability to perform a job or be suitable for the next stage of education.

As pointed out above, there will be winners and losers, as is obvious by comparing predicted and actual exam grades in a normal year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As pointed out above, there will be winners and losers, as is obvious by comparing predicted and actual exam grades in a normal year.

But what is certain in my book is that for everyone adversely affected there will be a way out (because with 60+ years ahead of you you've got ages), and you can choose to find and follow it, or you can choose spiralling into depression. Which is why I don't believe hand-wringing is useful at all, and is why I believe adults need to help children find the right way for them if they have been adversely affected by it all.

Worse things have happened to children and still will - for instance serious illnesses and abuse - than not getting the exam results they wanted and having to shift their path forward a bit.

 

[Richard Scott]

Well, you've got a choice. You can spiral him into depression by telling him all that nonsense and that his life is over due to something that nobody even looks at[1] once you've got a job or A-levels (Maths and English aside, which you can easily get at night school and many people do), or you can give him a boost by helping him find a route forward that will allow his dreams and aspirations to remain intact, just delayed by 12 months or so (which is insignificant in what is likely to be an 80 to 100 year lifespan), or for him to find another route to them. Which is it to be?

If what you said is true, people like my Dad who utterly screwed up school would have been destined to live in a Council flat alone claiming benefits forever, rather than what actually happened which is that he took stock, took some actions and rebuilt it all and now enjoys a comfortable, early-retired life in a large 4 bedroom house in a nice area of Lancashire with a grown up family and (until COVID came along) several holidays a year. Not quite as posh as our Cheshire correspondent, and a Vauxhall Mokka rather than two Range Rovers, but definitely a good life.

A problem at GCSE level - any problem - is not going to destroy anyone's life unless they let it - it's so early on there's tons of time to fix it. As adults who have an influence over children, it's incumbent on us to help them find a way.

[1] Seriously - as long as you get whatever is the modern equivalent of a C or above in Maths and English, literally the only purpose of GCSEs is to get you to the next stage. It doesn't feel like it at the time, but if you're applying for jobs in your 30s with a degree and a few years' experience, literally nobody even cares about them.

Thanks for the advise but I've worked with teenagers long enough to know how to deal with them and help them. My point is that it doesn't change the situation, you just need to accept that what is happening is having repercussions with youngsters and trying to say take a year out etc etc is not changing that. Why can't you emphathise with them rather than making excuses for a situation that shouldn't be occurring?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for the advise but I've worked with teenagers long enough to know how to deal with them and help them. My point is that it doesn't change the situation, you just need to accept that what is happening is having repercussions with youngsters and trying to say take a year out etc etc is not changing that. Why can't you emphathise with them rather than making excuses for a situation that shouldn't be occurring?

Because the situation has occurred, there is literally no point whatsoever stewing and hand-wringing over it as it cannot be changed. The only way is forwards.

This is exactly the same, in practice, as what you need to do if you fail your GCSEs due to your own fault - pick yourself up, take stock and plan for how to move forwards.

 

[Richard Scott]

Because the situation has occurred, there is literally no point whatsoever stewing and hand-wringing over it as it cannot be changed. The only way is forwards.

This is exactly the same, in practice, as what you need to do if you fail your GCSEs due to your own fault - pick yourself up, take stock and plan for how to move forwards.

Agree that we are where we are, but my point is that they have suffered enough and some are proposing to make matters worse. There is no-one in politics who has the guts to come up with a way out of this and all some people are interested bin is trying to eliminate this virus, chasing an impossible dream whilst everyone suffers.

 

[anthony263]

So do you, how old do you think their parents are? The under 18s have suffered enough with all of this. Coping in a war - what with our current flowers, we'd have all surrendered by now. You are asking an awful lot of them. I work with teenagers and will defend them to the hilt on this one, I'm fed up with the we're not asking much of them, oh it's a life lesson. Well some of them have had more issues in past 4 months than probably most people on here had in their entire childhood. Cut them some slack even if it means adults have to do some give and take over this. Don't forget they'll be paying your pension!

And speaking as a youngster myself we are getting rather fed up with the older generations moaning etc.

No wonder many of us are loo