Should the young shield?

[bramling]

I'm not even particularly old (sort of hovering around the start of what we call middle age) and I completely agree with @Belperpete. I don't support the premise "should the young shield", but I do think the young are much more resilient than people think. In particular under-10s or thereabouts just need to be loved and know they are loved, and they manage to cope with near enough anything.

It's much more difficult for teenagers, but there is plenty of time to recover, as he says. Many, many teenagers fail their exams for many reasons, and with the right help it is possible to pull things back and have a successful life - my Dad being a good example. It doesn't feel like that at the time, but it is, always was and always will be true.

I don't agree with the premise in the thread subject, but I do think we need to stop "hand-wringing" and just deal with the practicalities.



True. But what you've got there is a life lesson, they sometimes come in the most unexpected form, and that life lesson might do that person some good later.

They'll find an alternative path if we help them do so. Or they might find their intended path still works, because their sixth form college or university will perhaps take into account the difficulties they've had. Or perhaps they might find something unexpected as a benefit - for instance, I was very young for my year and went to university a bit too early and a bit too immature, and would have hugely benefitted from a year out and going a year later (other than that I was the last year not to pay fees). If I'd been forced into that unexpectedly my experience may have been better overall.

I don’t think we should just dismiss the exams situation as a life lesson. This cohort of children, like every other before them, will have spent a decade of school leading up to what would in many cases have been a final examination. No doubt some have their opinions on final examinations, but fact is this is what whey were working towards, and suddenly the goalposts were spectacularly moved at virtually zero notice, and we now have people being graded based on mock exam performance (which at the time was never envisaged to be a final exam) or in some cases what teachers thought a child should get. To my mind none of this is satisfactory, if it were me I’d be mightily pissed off, and even if one thinks they are fair game to learn a harsh lessons, what value in learning it when the damage is already well and truly done?

 

[richw]

What a load of rubbish. Twice I’ve needed to ask people to step away from me in queues now, both times they’ve been older people!
younger people are generally respecting the space of strangers whilst acting normally around their peers. The covid rate and death rate in younger people are minuscule so clearly isn’t creating an issue with them not distancing from each other!

 

[adc82140]

Did you know that in the 2018-19 flu season, 642 under 18s died in the US alone. I don't remember anyone suggesting closing schools over that, or indeed it even making the news.

 

[Yew]

the army down every single road stopping people going out

Shouldn't most of them be Shielding?

 

[adc82140]

The answer to the thread question is no. I would be fascinated to hear the opinions of the five (noting @adc82140 's accident ) who believe the young should shield.

If we were to take that ridiculous idea beyond hypothetical anyway, I can tell you as a young person that it quite simply would never work. The restrictions are generally not being abided by even now, telling young people they need to stay indoors and will not be allowed out will be ignored unless you had police and the army down every single road stopping people going out - and even then some would try their luck.

It intrigues me how some people, particularly the Facebook types, have this fascination with putting the army on the streets. They have no idea what pitting the British Army against the population actually means. They are the probably the same people that advocate filling up the ranks of the army with delinquents. The only time we had the army on the streets in the UK was during the Troubles in Northern Ireland, and that we all know how that turned out.

 

[Ianno87]

I don’t think we should just dismiss the exams situation as a life lesson. This cohort of children, like every other before them, will have spent a decade of school leading up to what would in many cases have been a final examination. No doubt some have their opinions on final examinations, but fact is this is what whey were working towards, and suddenly the goalposts were spectacularly moved at virtually zero notice, and we now have people being graded based on mock exam performance (which at the time was never envisaged to be a final exam) or in some cases what teachers thought a child should get. To my mind none of this is satisfactory, if it were me I’d be mightily pissed off, and even if one thinks they are fair game to learn a harsh lessons, what value in learning it when the damage is already well and truly done?

Love or hate them, but there is the satisfaction in working hard completing an exam and walking out of your last one is a great feeling, which this year's cohort won't get the satisfaction of.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Love or hate them, but there is the satisfaction in working hard completing an exam and walking out of your last one is a great feeling, which this year's cohort won't get the satisfaction of.

This is very true, but it's relatively minor in the scheme of things.

 

[Ianno87]

This is very true, but it's relatively minor in the scheme of things.

Disagree - my exams I look back on as being inamongst my proudest achievements, and part of my life that will always stay with me. They're pretty important to me.

 

[Richard Scott]

This is very true, but it's relatively minor in the scheme of things.

No it isn't. Maybe in your world but not in theirs. It's quite significant for many to a degree that some have committed suicide over this so not relatively minor but as far as you're concerned if it's not virus related it doesn't count or that's how it comes across at least.

 

[Belperpete]

No it isn't. Maybe in your world but not in theirs. It's quite significant for many to a degree that some have committed suicide over this so not relatively minor but as far as you're concerned if it's not virus related it doesn't count or that's how it comes across at least.

I agree that, at the time, exams do appear to be a very big thing - as does each of life's big hurdles (house buying, marriage, death of parents, cancer, etc.). However, once they have gained a bit more maturity and perspective, most people realise that the exams and the subjects they studied at school were fairly inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. It was the studying itself that was important, learning how to learn. Most of the actual subject matter is irrelevant to any career.

Many, many young people each year commit suicide in the run up to exams, and the subsequent fall-out, so if those lives have been saved this year, that can only be a good thing, surely?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Finishing and passing exams is a rite of passage as this paves the way for the next part in the journey of life. For many youngsters, this is a major deal

 

[bramling]

This is very true, but it's relatively minor in the scheme of things.

No it really isn’t. Many years of school to lead up to an exam which has implications for the next stage of school (in the case of GCSEs), which has implications for university, which then has implications on career prospects. It could leave a real lingering sore for some children if they feel they have been short-changed.

I also don’t really buy the idea that every teacher will be scrupulously fair. Some may genuinely mis-estimate a particular child, whilst there’s always the risk of a child being down or up graded depending on a teacher’s relationship with them.

 

[bramling]

I agree that, at the time, exams do appear to be a very big thing - as does each of life's big hurdles (house buying, marriage, death of parents, cancer, etc.). However, once they have gained a bit more maturity and perspective, most people realise that the exams and the subjects they studied at school were fairly inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. It was the studying itself that was important, learning how to learn. Most of the actual subject matter is irrelevant to any career.

Many, many young people each year commit suicide in the run up to exams, and the subsequent fall-out, so if those lives have been saved this year, that can only be a good thing, surely?

The above is okay in principle, however it doesn’t quite work out like that in practice. Exam grades are key to what happens next, especially for those children who already have specific plans about what they want to do next. And much as we all hate exams, for some children it’s their chance to shine - especially for some who might have been a bit sidelined through school for whatever reason. There’s plenty of children who aren’t on the star list who then pull it out of the bag for the exam, and these ones will have been denied that chance this year no question.

This could prove particularly salient at the moment as it’s likely there aren’t going to be a wealth of jobs ready for people to slip in to.

 

[Richard Scott]

I agree that, at the time, exams do appear to be a very big thing - as does each of life's big hurdles (house buying, marriage, death of parents, cancer, etc.). However, once they have gained a bit more maturity and perspective, most people realise that the exams and the subjects they studied at school were fairly inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. It was the studying itself that was important, learning how to learn. Most of the actual subject matter is irrelevant to any career.

Many, many young people each year commit suicide in the run up to exams, and the subsequent fall-out, so if those lives have been saved this year, that can only be a good thing, surely?

No it really isn’t. Many years of school to lead up to an exam which has implications for the next stage of school (in the case of GCSEs), which has implications for university, which then has implications on career prospects. It could leave a real lingering sore for some children if they feel they have been short-changed.

I also don’t really buy the idea that every teacher will be scrupulously fair. Some may genuinely mis-estimate a particular child, whilst there’s always the risk of a child being down or up graded depending on a teacher’s relationship with them.

The issue with this year's system is evidence for estimated grade is needed. Seeing as many pull it out of the bag at the last minute it'll be hard to justify a higher grade which that person probably would have achieved. Admittedly for a few it may benefit them but for many it won't. And again where's the feeling of achievement when just given a grade even if it is to your benefit? We all like to achieve and be told well done. This isn't going to happen for those doing GCSE or A-level this year. I think the sense of achievement is important and sure many others do. No point saying oh but they can do it in other ways not the same. Doubt many others have been through what these kids have do please don't be patronising and trot this one out.

 

[bramling]

It intrigues me how some people, particularly the Facebook types, have this fascination with putting the army on the streets. They have no idea what pitting the British Army against the population actually means. They are the probably the same people that advocate filling up the ranks of the army with delinquents. The only time we had the army on the streets in the UK was during the Troubles in Northern Ireland, and that we all know how that turned out.

It isn’t viable anyway. Northern Ireland as you say didn’t turn out well, and that was a small geographic area with a very small population. There simply isn’t the numbers to have army on every street round Britain. I think it would be a struggle just to enforce a London ring of steel.

 

[bramling]

The issue with this year's system is evidence for estimated grade is needed. Seeing as many pull it out of the bag at the last minute it'll be hard to justify a higher grade which that person probably would have achieved. Admittedly for a few it may benefit them but for many it won't. And again where's the feeling of achievement when just given a grade even if it is to your benefit? We all like to achieve and be told well done. This isn't going to happen for those doing GCSE or A-level this year. I think the sense of achievement is important and sure many others do. No point saying oh but they can do it in other ways not the same. Doubt many others have been through what these kids have do please don't be patronising and trot this one out.

Completely agree. For some children GCSEs and A levels are their first real proper opportunity to shine.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Disagree - my exams I look back on as being inamongst my proudest achievements, and part of my life that will always stay with me. They're pretty important to me.

Interesting. I did reasonably well on mine, but I see them as insignificant, they were just a step to the next thing. I'd say my degrees (I've got two) were a big achievement, but a fairly large part of those was not scored on exams, coursework was a very large part too. But it might be influenced by the fact that while I'm good at exams I don't think they are a particularly good method of assessment - indeed, I can pass them by way of targetted revision and exam technique even if my knowledge and understanding of the subject matter is terrible.

Completely agree. For some children GCSEs and A levels are their first real proper opportunity to shine.

First of many, of course.

 

[Belperpete]

Completely agree. For some children GCSEs and A levels are their first real proper opportunity to shine.

And they will still get that, when they get their results. What isn't helping is those who are talking down the current arrangement, as those the grades are being handed out completely arbitrarily. They aren't, they are based on the pupils' performance.

Some may look back on their GCSEs and A levels as the high point of their lives, but equally many look back on them as one of the worst times of their lives, a time that they were glad to put behind them.

 

[Belperpete]

I can pass them by way of targetted revision and exam technique even if my knowledge and understanding of the subject matter is terrible.

Indeed, "exam technique" is as important, if not more important, than the subject matter. I learnt this in history, when in my mock exam I totally mixed up the policies of Gladstone and Disraeli, and still got over 60% for my answer. In my Geography final exam, I could only answer one out of the required three questions in one of the papers, so answered that one at length, then wrote would I could for the other two as though I had run out of time, and got a middle-pass mark.

 

[DB]

And they will still get that, when they get their results. What isn't helping is those who are talking down the current arrangement, as those the grades are being handed out completely arbitrarily. They aren't, they are based on the pupils' performance.

As has already been pointed out, there are many who don't perform particularly well for most of the year (often because they can't be bothered, relying on being able to do well in the final exams) but then put in the effort with the exams and come out with a good grade. These people will be severely disadvantaged by the current situation.

 

[Ianno87]

I agree that, at the time, exams do appear to be a very big thing - as does each of life's big hurdles (house buying, marriage, death of parents, cancer, etc.). However, once they have gained a bit more maturity and perspective, most people realise that the exams and the subjects they studied at school were fairly inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. It was the studying itself that was important, learning how to learn. Most of the actual subject matter is irrelevant to any career.

The actual results of my GCSEs are, at this point of my life, pretty irrelevant. It's the feeling of having achieved them that is important. (But I'm equally happy never to have to sit an exam again!)

 

[Scrotnig]

It intrigues me how some people, particularly the Facebook types, have this fascination with putting the army on the streets. They have no idea what pitting the British Army against the population actually means.

Best of all are the ones that tack on "and shoot anyone found outside without good reason".

Excellent idea, so instead of filling the hospitals with Covid-19 patients, we'd fill them with people with gunshot wounds.

The incredible stupidity of such a seemingly huge number of people has terrified me far more than any virus could.

 

[bramling]

And they will still get that, when they get their results. What isn't helping is those who are talking down the current arrangement, as those the grades are being handed out completely arbitrarily. They aren't, they are based on the pupils' performance.

Some may look back on their GCSEs and A levels as the high point of their lives, but equally many look back on them as one of the worst times of their lives, a time that they were glad to put behind them.

The latter is one thing, but such people knew the score, and had many years to get prepared. We were all in the same boat. What is concerning is that for this years cohort the goalposts were suddenly moved at the last minute, which I find mightily unfair.

I sort of take your point about not putting down what people have been awarded. That’s fine for those who have done okay out of it, but it must leave a lingering “what if?” for others who haven’t come out with what they would have liked.

It *does* have massive implications for what happens next. GCSE results can be a determining factor if people even continue at school, and whilst it’s correct that degrees are probably more inportant work wise getting accepted onto a university course does depend on past grades. Likewise for some people the *only* qualifications on their CV will be a list of GCSE results, so what they’re allocated now really will be with them for many years.

It’s all very well putting down exam results from the security of an established job. I too am at the point where all that doesn’t really matter now. But that really wasn’t the case when I was in my early 20s, and it still has an effect now as a different route to what I’m doing now would have been financially less lucrative.

 

[Belperpete]

The latter is one thing, but such people knew the score, and had many years to get prepared. We were all in the same boat. What is concerning is that for this years cohort the goalposts were suddenly moved at the last minute, which I find mightily unfair.

I agree that it is unfair, but then life is unfair (and this virus is particularly unfair). By the time they take their GCSEs, children should have been taught that life is unfair - they should not still have adults trying to shield them from real life.

Where I disagree is in the significance. In normal times, there are significant numbers of pupils who suddenly find themselves unable to take their exams for no fault of their own, due to illness, accidents, etc. or whose performance is badly affected by sudden onset of hay-fever, exam nerves, or their parents separating, a close friend or relative dying, etc etc. You don't get people running around wailing about how unfair it all is. There are ways to overcome such setbacks, there is no need for such events to scar someone for life.

If the goalposts had been moved for some but not others, then I might have agreed that it was mightily unfair. However, in your own words, they are all in the same boat.

I have no doubt that for those coming up to these exams, who have spent the best part of their lives building up to this, it will seem mightily significant. But with the benefit of a bit more maturity, they will see that it is a fairly minor bump in the road, a slight diversion around some roadworks, not a total game-changer. There are far bigger life hurdles to come.

 

[DB]

I have no doubt that for those coming up to these exams, who have spent the best part of their lives building up to this, it will seem mightily significant. But with the benefit of a bit more maturity, they will see that it is a fairly minor bump in the road, a slight diversion around some roadworks, not a total game-changer. There are far bigger life hurdles to come.

Many, probably most, will no doubt get over it - but for those who miss out on the grades they need for whatever they want to do next it could prove pretty significant.

And the point is that it's totally unnecessary - there was never any need to close the schools.

 

[johnnychips]

Re Post 114:

There are significant numbers of pupils who suddenly find themselves unable to take their exams for no fault of their own, due to illness, accidents, etc. or whose performance is badly affected by sudden onset of hay-fever, exam nerves, or their parents separating, a close friend or relative dying, etc etc

I used to organise exemptions or mitigation for students for whom this had happened at a secondary school. It was never more than three or four in two hundred. Certainly not significant, but I know what you mean.

 

[Richard Scott]

I agree that it is unfair, but then life is unfair (and this virus is particularly unfair). By the time they take their GCSEs, children should have been taught that life is unfair - they should not still have adults trying to shield them from real life.

Where I disagree is in the significance. In normal times, there are significant numbers of pupils who suddenly find themselves unable to take their exams for no fault of their own, due to illness, accidents, etc. or whose performance is badly affected by sudden onset of hay-fever, exam nerves, or their parents separating, a close friend or relative dying, etc etc. You don't get people running around wailing about how unfair it all is. There are ways to overcome such setbacks, there is no need for such events to scar someone for life.

If the goalposts had been moved for some but not others, then I might have agreed that it was mightily unfair. However, in your own words, they are all in the same boat.

I have no doubt that for those coming up to these exams, who have spent the best part of their lives building up to this, it will seem mightily significant. But with the benefit of a bit more maturity, they will see that it is a fairly minor bump in the road, a slight diversion around some roadworks, not a total game-changer. There are far bigger life hurdles to come.

If something untoward happens under normal circumstances then they can get special consideration for their exams - they still sit them but the circumstances are taken into account when grades are issued. Please don't underestimate the significance of this virus on those in school, it's not a simple life lesson that life is unfair. Many have learned that already in ways that would make you really cringe; far worse than anything listed above. I wish people would actually think before making these statements, almost no-one on this forum has had their childhood disrupted in the way that the current generation have. To be honest most of them are dealing with it very maturely but for some it is a real issue. A little more empathy rather than trot out the Victorian life lesson would help. Thank you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If something untoward happens under normal circumstances then they can get special consideration for their exams - they still sit them but the circumstances are taken into account when grades are issued.

Indeed. I recall putting in for this on one of my uni finals because I had a car accident the day before which rather shook me up (and gave me nasty whiplash) so I didn't do the planned last minute cramming. I don't know if it actually affected the grade or not, though.

 

[Belperpete]

Many, probably most, will no doubt get over it - but for those who miss out on the grades they need for whatever they want to do next it could prove pretty significant.

And the point is that it's totally unnecessary - there was never any need to close the schools.

For those who miss out on the grades they need, it should be no more significant than for those who in normal times miss out on the grades they need for no fault of their own. It is not the end of the world - there are ways to overcome such setbacks.

And to say it was totally unnecessary is ridiculous. While it is true that it has been found that the impact of the virus on the young is generally insignificant, that is with the benefit of hindsight. And it is far from the whole story - they are not the only ones who go to school. And the ability of the young to spread the virus around the wider community is still far from clear.

 

[AdamWW]

For those who miss out on the grades they need, it should be no more significant than for those who in normal times miss out on the grades they need for no fault of their own. It is not the end of the world - there are ways to overcome such setbacks.

And to say it was totally unnecessary is ridiculous. While it is true that it has been found that the impact of the virus on the young is generally insignificant, that is with the benefit of hindsight. And it is far from the whole story - they are not the only ones who go to school. And the ability of the young to spread the virus around the wider community is still far from clear.

We should find out soon what actually happens when you open the schools.