Should there be HS2 trains from Birmingham Curzon Street to the north upon completion of phase 1?

[PTR 444]

As opposed to the opening of phases 2a/2b. While the track connection linking the Birmingham spur with HS2 to the north will be operational from day 1, no revenue services will be using it as the current plan is for Curzon Street to initially only have trains to London.

If the track connection will be there, I’m not sure why there’s a need to wait until phase 2 before passenger services from Curzon Street to Manchester and Scotland can commence. It’s not like coming off at Handsacre will make the journey slower as domestic trains making the same journey still have to trundle through Wolverhampton. The only other reason I can think of is that it will sever direct links beyond Birmingham (Glasgow to Milton Keynes and Manchester to Bournemouth etc), but then that will be happening anyway with the phase 2b plan (assuming this doesn’t get canned).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I think Birmingham-Manchester should go on HS2 (replacing the existing XC service) from day one.

 

[Trainbike46]

I think the main reason is why would you run those services to curzon street?

They would be more expensive, you would remove some through connectivity, but the speed advantage wouldn't be there yet as the distance on high-speed track would be pretty minimal. When phase 2a/2b opens, the speed and capacity advantages kick in

 

[tomuk]

I think it is completely possible, in fact Andy Street talked about it at one of the Parliamentary Select Committee hearings. He/Midlands Connect were keen as it would free up capacity into New Street from Wolverhampton on the Stour Valley.

I've had this debate on other forums but the idea is just dismissed out of hand by the HS2 puritans who seem to think the original HS2 ITSS is a sacred document despite the various changes, cuts and delays to the later stages of HS2.

 

[PTR 444]

Yes, I think Birmingham-Manchester should go on HS2 (replacing the existing XC service) from day one.

I agree, although these should be in addition to the existing XC services rather than replacing them (so Brum has 4tph to Manchester)

I think the main reason is why would you run those services to curzon street?

They would be more expensive, you would remove some through connectivity, but the speed advantage wouldn't be there yet as the distance on high-speed track would be pretty minimal. When phase 2a/2b opens, the speed and capacity advantages kick in

It could be done for capacity rather than speed reasons though. Without the need to route all Brum - Manchester trains via Wolverhampton, you could easily double the frequency of trains between the two cities by allowing half of these to run from Curzon Street.

 

[JonathanH]

I agree, although these should be in addition to the existing XC services rather than replacing them (so Brum has 4tph to Manchester)

The limitation on running 4tph into Manchester from Birmingham before later phases of HS2 is how you get the trains into Manchester when there are only two available paths (ie the ones already designated to CrossCountry).

Which services into Manchester would you cancel to create space for the HS2 trains? What platforms would be used at Piccadilly?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Perhaps they should route the Trent Valley Glasgow services via HS2 from day one

 

[JonathanH]

Perhaps they should route the Trent Valley Glasgow services via HS2 from day one

Why? They won't be able to get to Euston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps they should route the Trent Valley Glasgow services via HS2 from day one

Yes, they should. As Phase 1 has a connection to the Trent Valley, you can free up south WCML capacity by running most fast WCML services onto it.

Why? They won't be able to get to Euston.

For clarity I mean day one of full Phase 1 service. Running them to OOC instead of Euston would indeed be a bad plan.

 

[JonathanH]

For clarity I mean day one of full Phase 1 service. Running them to OOC instead of Euston would indeed be a bad plan.

Yes, well that is happening isn't it? I thought the OP was talking about the period when Old Oak Common is the terminus which is 'day 1'.

https://www.hs2.org.uk/what-is-hs2/phase-one-london-west-midlands/

Phase One: London to West Midlands
The route
Phase One of HS2 will see a new high speed railway line constructed from London to the West Midlands, where it will re-join the existing West Coast Mainline. Services will travel onwards to places like Manchester, Glasgow, Liverpool, Preston and Wigan. Phase One will open between 2029 and 2033.

 

[PTR 444]

Why? They won't be able to get to Euston.

Could they not reverse at Curzon Street?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could they not reverse at Curzon Street?

I think we're getting cross purposes here.

There is no need to run Manchester-Birmingham services through to Euston. They don't do that now.

There is no need for a Scotland-Euston service to reverse at Curzon St to get to Euston once Euston is open. Full Phase 1 will be able to do this. "Day one" is a limited Brum-OOC service as a trial, so nothing on HS2 can reach Euston.

 

[PTR 444]

I think we're getting cross purposes here.

There is no need to run Manchester-Birmingham services through to Euston. They don't do that now.

There is no need for a Scotland-Euston service to reverse at Curzon St to get to Euston once Euston is open. Full Phase 1 will be able to do this. "Day one" is a limited Brum-OOC service as a trial, so nothing on HS2 can reach Euston.

Sorry, I had a little senior moment thinking the Trent Valley Glasgow service (quoting gordonthemoron in his post) referred to the existing Euston - Scotland service via Birmingham. If that was to go onto HS2 it would need to reverse at Brum Curzon Street.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, I had a little senior moment thinking the Trent Valley Glasgow service (quoting gordonthemoron in his post) referred to the existing Euston - Scotland service via Birmingham. If that was to go onto HS2 it would need to reverse at Brum Curzon Street.

Ah, no, it wasn't that. I've seen a few proposals for post-HS2 classic line services, but at least one of them retained that service on the classic line throughout.

 

[py_megapixel]

Yes, I think Birmingham-Manchester should go on HS2 (replacing the existing XC service) from day one.

How will that work for those heading from the North East towards Reading/Southampton or the North West towards Cheltenham/Bristol? Every new service pattern of late seems to have been designed by people hell-bent on making those connections worse. We don't need any more of that!

 

[PTR 444]

How will that work for those heading from the North East towards Reading/Southampton or the North West towards Cheltenham/Bristol? Every new service pattern of late seems to have been designed by people hell-bent on making those connections worse. We don't need any more of that!

This is why even when HS2 is fully operational from London to Manchester, there still needs to be direct Manchester - South coast/South West trains on the classic lines, even if they become slower by having more stops added.

But of course if there was a short link from the Curzon Street HS2 platforms to the classic lines in the Bordsley area, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How will that work for those heading from the North East towards Reading/Southampton

They don't travel via Manchester. They don't now*, either; XC services from the North East to the South/South West run via Burton.

or the North West towards Cheltenham/Bristol?

I guess they'd have to change at Birmingham. But HS2 or no I do favour splitting this so a long EMU can be used instead of short Voyagers under the wires.

* As a serial avoider of the dross that is XC I'd do North East-Kings X-Reading/Southampton, but that's a bit irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[py_megapixel]

They don't travel via Manchester. They don't now*, either; XC services from the North East to the South/South West run via Burton.

I know, but if the Manchester-Reading-Southampton XC services stop then what will fill in? I suppose a Birmingham-Southampton service could run but I thought New Street couldn't handle any more reversals, and if Andy Street wants more West Midlands local services then it will be hard to please everyone.

I guess they'd have to change at Birmingham. But HS2 or no I do favour splitting this so a long EMU can be used instead of short Voyagers under the wires.

But not only will they have to change trains in Birmingham, they'll have to change stations.

I know Curzon Street isn't that far from New Street, but plenty of people are put off by the lack of a direct train. You can see this by the crowding that Virgin CrossCountry caused by putting nominally a similar amount of capacity on a service pattern that offered vastly more direct journeys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know Curzon Street isn't that far from New Street, but plenty of people are put off by the lack of a direct train. You can see this by the crowding that Virgin CrossCountry caused by putting nominally a similar amount of capacity on a service pattern that offered vastly more direct journeys.

They didn't. They reduced the overall capacity on a service pattern that offered a higher service frequency. Old XC offered plenty of direct journey opportunities - that was its whole marketing point - albeit the whole thing was less frequent.

 

[tomuk]

As the Marylebone-Birmingham services will be pretty redundant when phase one opens why not run the Manchester-Reading-Southampton XC services into Moor Street/Snow Hill?

 

[py_megapixel]

They didn't. They reduced the overall capacity on a service pattern that offered a higher service frequency. Old XC offered plenty of direct journey opportunities - that was its whole marketing point - albeit the whole thing was less frequent.

Point taken. I think how I should have phrased it is that surely the clockface timetable and the increase in frequency would have increased the range of direct destinations available to someone who was looking to travel at a specific time.

I don't have an issue with the approach of all Manchester-Birmingham going via HS2 once the whole network is up and running, because then from Manchester, going almost all the way into London and changing at Old Oak Common will become competitive time-wise with changing at New Street (though maybe not with a direct XC service) - particularly true for Reading and Oxford, but possibly also for Bristol and the South West. But introducing a previously unnecessary walk between stations into many people's journeys is unlikely to go well.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Why? They won't be able to get to Euston.

HS2 goes to Euston, I meant using HS2 compatible stock

 

[HSTEd]

They would be more expensive

Why would they be more expensive?
The saving in pathing costs alone would be substantial, go to the nearly empty Birmingham HS2 station or try to squeeze into New Street.

 

[JamesT]

As the Marylebone-Birmingham services will be pretty redundant when phase one opens why not run the Manchester-Reading-Southampton XC services into Moor Street/Snow Hill?

You can’t go via International if you’re running into Moor Street.

 

[tomuk]

You can’t go via International if you’re running into Moor Street.

I know send them via Solihull. Run a high capacity EMU between Crewe and Coventry in their place.

 

[HSTEd]

You can’t go via International if you’re running into Moor Street.

Do they have to go via International?

If people are going to International then the route into London and then onto HS2 is probably going to be preferred.

 

[Trainbike46]

Why would they be more expensive?
The saving in pathing costs alone would be substantial, go to the nearly empty Birmingham HS2 station or try to squeeze into New Street.

I should have been clearer, I meant more expensive rolling stock

 

[Gareth]

Yes, I think Birmingham-Manchester should go on HS2 (replacing the existing XC service) from day one.

What happens to the through services? And why not the Liverpools or Glasgow's as well?

 

[JamesT]

Do they have to go via International?

If people are going to International then the route into London and then onto HS2 is probably going to be preferred.

For Reading and South maybe, but for Oxford, Banbury, and Leamington Spa there’s no way you’d be going to Birmingham Airport via London.
XC had a long-term ambition to send both their services each hour via International, so they obviously consider it important.

 

[tomuk]

What happens to the through services? And why not the Liverpools or Glasgow's as well?

The Liverpools and Glagows will use Phase 1.