Should UK manufacturers develop more products for Continental Europe?

[SouthEastBuses]

*MOD NOTE* - The discussion in this thread was originally in this thread, but due to it being speculative rather than actual news it warranted a separate thread:

Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

I'm sure a thread like this was created before, however i had a look and can no longer find it. The purpose of this thread is to post news and updates regarding bus manufacturers based in the UK such as ADL, Optare and Wright. Builders like Mellor Coachcraft who do the minibus van bodies are...

www.railforums.co.uk

A bit too ambitious I know, but it would be nice to see UK manufactures making more buses for Continental Europe.

I'm aware there's the Enviro500 and Solo SR, but I don't think it's enough. A Continental European version of the Enviro200 MMC, Enviro400 MMC, as well as a LHD Versa / LHD Metrocity would be great as well. Perhaps ADL should think about an 18m Enviro200 MMC bendy bus too, mainly aimed at Continental Europe but also a RHD version for the UK & Ireland.

Also who agrees with me that it would be nice to see an Optare or ADL trolleybus, again aimed at Continental Europe?

 

[SouthEastBuses]

My attempt at making an Enviro200 MMC bendy bus lol, but in UK & Ireland version (RHD).
Hope you all like it!

 

[CM]

A bit too ambitious I know, but it would be nice to see UK manufactures making more buses for Continental Europe.

I'm aware there's the Enviro500 and Solo SR, but I don't think it's enough. A Continental European version of the Enviro200 MMC, Enviro400 MMC, as well as a LHD Versa / LHD Metrocity would be great as well. Perhaps ADL should think about an 18m Enviro200 MMC bendy bus too, mainly aimed at Continental Europe but also a RHD version for the UK & Ireland.

Also who agrees with me that it would be nice to see an Optare or ADL trolleybus, again aimed at Continental Europe?

It would be nice to see more UK built buses being purchased by operators in Mainland Europe but the only way companies like ADL etc are going to build them is if these European operators order them. Most European operators seem to stick with the likes of MAN, Mercedes etc.

 

[Jordan Adam]

A bit too ambitious I know, but it would be nice to see UK manufactures making more buses for Continental Europe.

I'm aware there's the Enviro500 and Solo SR, but I don't think it's enough. A Continental European version of the Enviro200 MMC, Enviro400 MMC, as well as a LHD Versa / LHD Metrocity would be great as well. Perhaps ADL should think about an 18m Enviro200 MMC bendy bus too, mainly aimed at Continental Europe but also a RHD version for the UK & Ireland.

Also who agrees with me that it would be nice to see an Optare or ADL trolleybus, again aimed at Continental Europe?

There would be little point and little market. Most of ADL and Optares products are solely aimed at the UK market which is vastly different to the EU. Even when Wright offered the Streetlite to the EU market with a VDL name plate it barely made any sales. There's also the fact that they don't have an established parts supply chain in the EU. The simple fact is no UK builder is going to create products for the EU unless they get a substantial order that justifies development and production costs. There's no point trying to enter a market where you have no experience and there's already an over saturation of competitors.

 

[Goldfish62]

There would be little point and little market. Most of ADL and Optares products are solely aimed at the UK market which is vastly different to the EU. Even when Wright offered the Streetlite to the EU market with a VDL name plate it barely made any sales. There's also the fact that they don't have an established parts supply chain in the EU. The simple fact is no UK builder is going to create products for the EU unless they get a substantial order that justifies development and production costs. There's no point trying to enter a market where you have no experience and there's already an over saturation of competitors.

Before the dreaded "B" thing cropped up in 2016 ADL was actively looking at major expansion of its business in mainland Europe and in the meantime it still managed to secure a very large order of E500s for Berlin.

Of course, the market for double decks in most of Europe is very limited and in respect of single decks the market is still very much for 12m heavyweights and artic.

 

[Mikey C]

The Enviro350H was designed for overseas markets including Europe, I don't think it was very successful

 

[Jordan Adam]

Before the dreaded "B" thing cropped up in 2016 ADL was actively looking at major expansion of its business in mainland Europe and in the meantime it still managed to secure a very large order of E500s for Berlin.

Of course, the market for double decks in most of Europe is very limited and in respect of single decks the market is still very much for 12m heavyweights and artic.

Building the E500 to European spec however is easier than it would be for other products given that the E500 is already offered in LHD markets and there's only a limited number of deckers offered on the mainland. As you point out the main market in Europe is still very much for 12M+ heavyweights and Artics, neither of which any of the main UK builders offer at the moment.

The Enviro350H was designed for overseas markets including Europe, I don't think it was very successful

15 were sold in Europe, all with local bodies. The E350H as a whole under performed when it came to sales with only 26 sold in the UK (27 built including the Demonstrator), perhaps a good thing though as Aberdeen have 22 of those built and they're awful things, and not that economical...

 

[SouthEastBuses]

In fact, my attempt was at making an Enviro200 MMC in 18m version, where there is a large market of this type of bus in Continental Europe.

And, @Jordan Adam, ADL do make 12m E200 MMCs for the UK & Ireland market, not something really new for them.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Before the dreaded "B" thing cropped up in 2016 ADL was actively looking at major expansion of its business in mainland Europe and in the meantime it still managed to secure a very large order of E500s for Berlin.

Of course, the market for double decks in most of Europe is very limited and in respect of single decks the market is still very much for 12m heavyweights and artic.

Hence why I attempted to do a photoshop of a 18m Enviro200 MMC bendy bus. I may have sent you an RHD version, but it would be definetly aimed at LHD markets lol

 

[Jordan Adam]

In fact, my attempt was at making an Enviro200 MMC in 18m version, where there is a large market of this type of bus in Continental Europe.

And, @Jordan Adam, ADL do make 12m E200 MMCs for the UK & Ireland market, not something really new for them.

Yes however building an Articulated bus would require lots of development and money, plus it's something ADL lack experience in.

E200MMCs are built to 11.8M lengths however these are 'extended' light weight midi-buses (not full size single deckers) of which there is no market for in Europe.

 

[Robertj21a]

Hence why I attempted to do a photoshop of a 18m Enviro200 MMC bendy bus. I may have sent you an RHD version, but it would be definetly aimed at LHD markets lol

Is a E200 MMC heavily enough engineered to become an artic. Most European opetators seem very happy with their heavyweights.

 

[MotCO]

ADL's single deck model is a light / medium weight small bus; is there a market for such buses in Europe? The market in the UK grew from the bread-vans of the 1970s and 1980s and just kept getting a bit bigger - I don't know if the European market has developed in the same way.

Further, there are lots of 2 and 3 doored buses in Europe - it would not be easy to produce a 3 door LHD Enviro 200.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Further, there are lots of 2 and 3 doored buses in Europe - it would not be easy to produce a 3 door LHD Enviro 200.

Given the layout of the chassis i don't think it would be possible without extensive modifications, in which case you'd probably be better off starting with a entirely new design.

 

[Robertj21a]

I doubt there is quite the same interest in lìghter weight buses across Europe when many bus services are run under tender or franchise. It's the UĶ that expects that most bus servìces can be run commercially.

 

[CM]

Yes however building an Articulated bus would require lots of development and money, plus it's something ADL lack experience in.

E200MMCs are built to 11.8M lengths however these are 'extended' light weight midi-buses (not full size single deckers) of which there is no market for in Europe.

I wouldn't say there is no market outright for lightweight single deckers in Europe. VDL's Citea(based on the SB200) seems to have sold in decent numbers on the continent. BVG in Berlin has quite a large fleet of them.

 

[Goldfish62]

I doubt there is quite the same interest in lìghter weight buses across Europe when many bus services are run under tender or franchise. It's the UĶ that expects that most bus servìces can be run commercially.

This is precisely the point. The UK is pretty unique in its preference for lightweight single decks.

 

[hst43102]

I'm aware there's the Enviro500 and Solo SR, but I don't think it's enough. A Continental European version of the Enviro200 MMC, Enviro400 MMC, as well as a LHD Versa / LHD Metrocity would be great as well. Perhaps ADL should think about an 18m Enviro200 MMC bendy bus too, mainly aimed at Continental Europe but also a RHD version for the UK & Ireland.

Also who agrees with me that it would be nice to see an Optare or ADL trolleybus, again aimed at Continental Europe?

I really don't see a LHD E400MMC being a reality - very few countries in Europe operate decker's in any significant quantity, except for sightseeing. Berlin is the only place I can think of?

The Optare Versa is a 12-year old design - If this was going to work it would have been done a long time ago!

Trolleybus - nice idea but in reality not many places operate trolleybuses, so the market would be very small and not worth the R+D costs.


I can see a possibility of Plaxton coaches for the European market - Polskibus took a few Elite-i's a few years back, but I think there could be a huge market to tap into.

 

[MotCO]

I can see a possibility of Plaxton coaches for the European market - Polskibus took a few Elite-i's a few years back, but I think there could be a huge market to tap into.

Wasn't Polski owned by Souter, hence the ADL link up? That's not to say Plaxton could market coaches abroad, after all we import a lot from Europe, so why can't the reverse be true?

 

[CM]

Wasn't Polski owned by Souter, hence the ADL link up? That's not to say Plaxton could market coaches abroad, after all we import a lot from Europe, so why can't the reverse be true?

.

I'd imagine most European coach operators prefer to purchase vehicles from a single manufacturer(ie: VDL, VanHool, MAN etc)who build the complete vehicles instead of the likes of Plaxton who are a body on chassis manufacturer. It's also probably more cost-effective to buy a complete vehicle from VDL etc than having a Volvo chassis sent from their factory, over to Plaxton to have a body fit and then sent back to Europe.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I really don't see a LHD E400MMC being a reality - very few countries in Europe operate decker's in any significant quantity, except for sightseeing. Berlin is the only place I can think of?

The Optare Versa is a 12-year old design - If this was going to work it would have been done a long time ago!

Trolleybus - nice idea but in reality not many places operate trolleybuses, so the market would be very small and not worth the R+D costs.


I can see a possibility of Plaxton coaches for the European market - Polskibus took a few Elite-i's a few years back, but I think there could be a huge market to tap into.

My bad, I thought the Versa was still made.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Otherwise, the alternative would be to create an Enviro300 MMC for the Continental European market in different versions:

Enviro300 MMC LF: 100% fully low floor design like the Citaro - suited to Class I city bus routes to accomodate in two and three doors. Available in 12 and 18m bendy bus.
Enviro300 MMC LE: Partially low floor design like the old Enviro300 - suited to class II interurban bus routes. Available in 12, 13 & 15m.

 

[Swanny200]

Did ADL ever dabble with Articulated buses, the only one I can think of were the Interurbans that Plaxton did over 20 years ago, all 2 of them I think, Optare I don't remember ever doing any artic work, even BYD's involvement with ADL I doubt would bring any recent artic experience (as I am assuming the design and tech of articulated vehicles would have come on in 2 decades) as I'm sure they haven't done anything. The only British option with any relevant experience in the field would be Wrightbus and even then, when was the last artic they did?

 

[CM]

Otherwise, the alternative would be to create an Enviro300 MMC for the Continental European market in different versions:

Enviro300 MMC LF: 100% fully low floor design like the Citaro - suited to Class I city bus routes to accomodate in two and three doors. Available in 12 and 18m bendy bus.
Enviro300 MMC LE: Partially low floor design like the old Enviro300 - suited to class II interurban bus routes. Available in 12, 13 & 15m.

ADL won't create these models if nobody orders them. Look at the Enviro 400XLB for example, the only reason they built them was that Lothian ordered them.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

This is precisely the point. The UK is pretty unique in its preference for lightweight single decks.

Except that heavyweight single deckers are very common in the UK too. Example: Mercedes Citaro. Various Go-Ahead companies such as Go North East and Oxford Bus Company have loads of them.

 

[Goldfish62]

Except that heavyweight single deckers are very common in the UK too. Example: Mercedes Citaro. Various Go-Ahead companies such as Go North East and Oxford Bus Company have loads of them.

That's not correct. They're not very common at when you look at the proportion of heavyweights v lightweights. GoAhead hasn't bought Citaros for years and has none of the latest version. The lightweight single deck bus is dominant in the domestic market.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

That's not correct. They're not very common at when you look at the proportion of heavyweights v lightweights. GoAhead hasn't bought Citaros for years and had none of the latest version.

Wrong. Go-Ahead do have the latest version, the Citaro C2. It's Go-Ahead London Metrobus MEC51-69 that currently run on London TfL bus route 358 from Orpington Station to Crystal Place. But you'd be right that GAL's MEC51-69 are Go-Ahead's only Citaro C2s.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Could Brexit also be a possible reason why hardly anyone is recently ordering stuff like the Citaro?

 

[Swanny200]

That's not correct. They're not very common at when you look at the proportion of heavyweights v lightweights. GoAhead hasn't bought Citaros for years and has none of the latest version. The lightweight single deck bus is dominant in the domestic market.

I think the latest version has been a demo around the country, Cardiff Bus, Go Ahead NE etc but nobody has taken it on properly yet.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

You mean the Citaro C2? Again, incorrect. Cardiff Bus bought 20 of them, Blackpool Transport have 9 of them operating on their Palladium route 5. Kinchbus have them on the Skylink. And there's McGills and various other indipendent bus companies that do have a couple of Citaro C2s.

 

[Swanny200]

They stopped making the C2 a couple of years ago I seem to recall, This is a 68 plate GL CapaCity model